Sosun Patta translation please

Gavin Nugent · 11th June 2009, 08:50 PM

Hi guys and gals,

I have recently bought a stunning Makara Hilted Sosun Patta that I am definately adding to my personal collection. I will post full images when it arrives in a couple of weeks.

Until then, I am hoping someone can help with a translation of the Sanskrit text on blade. From what I can make out, the image provided is something like; ai__Pah_______13?????

Any direction would be fantastic.

regards

Gav

bhushan_lawate · 12th June 2009, 05:59 AM

Hi,

Looks like an armoury inventory no.

in Devanagari script and reads:

Ri. De: Pa: Num: 18/13 followed by the crecent mark.

I must also say that the "Ri" is a lil doubtful.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Bhushan

Gavin Nugent · 12th June 2009, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhushan_lawate

Hi,

Looks like an armoury inventory no.

in Devanagari script and reads:

Ri. De: Pa: Num: 18/13 followed by the crecent mark.

I must also say that the "Ri" is a lil doubtful.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Bhushan

Thank you so very much Bhushan!!!

Outstanding!!

I just received email from another gentleman Nandu.

I too would agree it is an armoury number since you both had drawn the same conclusion, Nandu, not knowing swords referred to it as a catalogue number.
He too came up with "ri" though???

I quote;

"It reads as if some catalog number
rI. de: pa: naM: 19 / 130
The 130 could be extended as wiped OM but may be a stretch.
The last naM is for number. It could be 130 or 137 as the the circle for zero is not complete. It is hard to guess what is means.
The text is in Devanagari script so is less likely from South of India unless it is from Tanjavur or places near Bombay."

Very interesting that you both indicate "ri" although you think it is a long shot.
Bhushan, I guess from your reference to the cresent mark may dismiss Nandu's "OM" notation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bhushan_lawate

Ri. De: Pa: Num: 18/13 followed by the crecent mark.

What does Ri. De: Pa: mean exactly?

So many questions.

Many thanks

Gav

Gonzalo G · 14th June 2009, 03:23 AM

Congratulations for your purchase, Gav. I hope to see soon many pictures of your sousson pata. If you don´t mind, I will ask for measures and weight. I dream (vainly) of having a sword of this kind.
Regards

Gonzalo

bhushan_lawate · 15th June 2009, 06:05 AM

Hi,

I'm not sure what the letters stand for; looks more like an abbreviation or an initial of something.

However i believe that the "Num" indicates that this inventory number must have been "punched" in the last century.

Earlier the Inidan armouries did not use such a convention.

Also "Num" stands for "Number" which is now widely used across India in all languages; this wasnt the case earlier.

Regards,
Bhushan

Gavin Nugent · 16th June 2009, 05:18 AM

Thanks again Bhushan;

How do you think this "stamping" of the code came about?

I'd say the weapon is a lot older than the last hundred years, but how old I honestly have no idea as to an approx time period. I think images when they come to hand will certainly help.

Does anyone have any insight in to the comings and goings of the Sosun Patta in a historical time line as such, when they first appeared as a Sosun Patta and when the were last seen in active service?

I also wonder about the damascus steel seen in the image above, would it be considered birds eye damascus?

Thanks again.

Gav

RSWORD · 16th June 2009, 06:52 PM

Am looking forward to complete pictures of the sword and better detailed pics of the blade and the pattern. From what we can see in the pic provided, the blade is of pattern welded steel. I would not classify it as a bird's eye pattern as the circular patterns we see are much more elongated than what you typically see associated with the bird's eye pattern. That pattern the circular patterns are much tighter and in closer proximation that what is pictured. However, the pattern shown does show promise to being an active pattern weld probably with the circular patterns throughout the central portion of the blade and I would guess some wavy, longitudinal laminations along the edge and possibly along the spine.

Jim McDougall · 23rd June 2009, 08:10 AM

Thank you so much Rick for your insight on the metallurgy of this fascinating piece! I am always amazed at your astute eye in discerning the sometimes very intricate detail in these blade patterns.
I am hoping this information will help in trying to assess the likely provenance of this sword, which has a hilt quite unusual...really looking forward to seeing more on it when it arrives in Gav's lair!!!!

All the best,
Jim

Gavin Nugent · 27th September 2009, 09:36 PM

It has been some time, images as promised, keeper keeper keeper!!!

http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s085_full.html

I absolutely love this sword and I would have loved to have bought Artzi's Wootz example he recently parted with, it seemed to be of similar form in the blade.
The Sosun is my fav by far, and as a favorite it exceeds even the rarest of Chinese weapons I have in my collection and that is a big call for me.

Gav

Jens Nordlunde · 27th September 2009, 10:16 PM

It seems to me that most, if not all, the armoury markings are
'relativity' new, although the blade/sword could be a lot older .

Gavin Nugent · 27th September 2009, 10:35 PM

Hi Jens,

Yes indeed from talks I have had about this type of text, the markings could well be younger...though as you note the hilt and blade could be much older.
Through conversations with some of your peers in your neck of the woods, it has been noted that this piece is most likely 18th century. How and why the blade was marked as it is, remains a mystery. There is evidence of gold remaining in the script.
Another aspect that I note is a contradiction of sorts, though contradicitons can be many in the study of arms...... The text in my opinion, based on the first character is stamped, I say this because the fuller is "pushed" in at this point, an effect I ponder could have happened whilst the blade had heat in it, I am not saying steel doesn't move when cold but I think such a fine precise character mark with no blemishing around it could not have been struck as it was and do that to a fuller cold without leaving further marks...only speculation for the moment. The contradiction is that the characters also appear to be finely chiseled, are all of varing depth within each character and lines from differing directions can be seen to overlap underlying chiselling and the depth and edges are not cut as a stamp would.....
Then comes to mind is that after a blade is forged, although one can be forged with fullers, they are for the most part applied later when of this quality. Being done after the blade is made and the fuller being pushed in the way it is..... a stamp makes sense......ponderous.

Gav

11th June 2009, 08:50 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Sosun Patta translation please Hi guys and gals, I have recently bought a stunning Makara Hilted Sosun Patta that I am definately adding to my personal collection. I will post full images when it arrives in a couple of weeks. Until then, I am hoping someone can help with a translation of the Sanskrit text on blade. From what I can make out, the image provided is something like; ai__Pah_______13????? Any direction would be fantastic. regards Gav Attached Images

16th June 2009, 05:18 AM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Thank you again Thanks again Bhushan; How do you think this "stamping" of the code came about? I'd say the weapon is a lot older than the last hundred years, but how old I honestly have no idea as to an approx time period. I think images when they come to hand will certainly help. Does anyone have any insight in to the comings and goings of the Sosun Patta in a historical time line as such, when they first appeared as a Sosun Patta and when the were last seen in active service? I also wonder about the damascus steel seen in the image above, would it be considered birds eye damascus? Thanks again. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 16th June 2009 at 10:19 AM.

27th September 2009, 09:36 PM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Images as promised It has been some time, images as promised, keeper keeper keeper!!! http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s085_full.html I absolutely love this sword and I would have loved to have bought Artzi's Wootz example he recently parted with, it seemed to be of similar form in the blade. The Sosun is my fav by far, and as a favorite it exceeds even the rarest of Chinese weapons I have in my collection and that is a big call for me. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 28th September 2009 at 02:28 AM.

27th September 2009, 10:35 PM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Could be. Hi Jens, Yes indeed from talks I have had about this type of text, the markings could well be younger...though as you note the hilt and blade could be much older. Through conversations with some of your peers in your neck of the woods, it has been noted that this piece is most likely 18th century. How and why the blade was marked as it is, remains a mystery. There is evidence of gold remaining in the script. Another aspect that I note is a contradiction of sorts, though contradicitons can be many in the study of arms...... The text in my opinion, based on the first character is stamped, I say this because the fuller is "pushed" in at this point, an effect I ponder could have happened whilst the blade had heat in it, I am not saying steel doesn't move when cold but I think such a fine precise character mark with no blemishing around it could not have been struck as it was and do that to a fuller cold without leaving further marks...only speculation for the moment. The contradiction is that the characters also appear to be finely chiseled, are all of varing depth within each character and lines from differing directions can be seen to overlap underlying chiselling and the depth and edges are not cut as a stamp would..... Then comes to mind is that after a blade is forged, although one can be forged with fullers, they are for the most part applied later when of this quality. Being done after the blade is made and the fuller being pushed in the way it is..... a stamp makes sense......ponderous. Gav Last edited by freebooter; 28th September 2009 at 03:25 PM.

12th June 2009, 05:59 AM	#2
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, Looks like an armoury inventory no. in Devanagari script and reads: Ri. De: Pa: Num: 18/13 followed by the crecent mark. I must also say that the "Ri" is a lil doubtful. Hope this helps. Regards, Bhushan

14th June 2009, 03:23 AM	#4
Gonzalo G Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nothern Mexico Posts: 458	Congratulations for your purchase, Gav. I hope to see soon many pictures of your sousson pata. If you don´t mind, I will ask for measures and weight. I dream (vainly) of having a sword of this kind. Regards Gonzalo

15th June 2009, 06:05 AM	#5
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, I'm not sure what the letters stand for; looks more like an abbreviation or an initial of something. However i believe that the "Num" indicates that this inventory number must have been "punched" in the last century. Earlier the Inidan armouries did not use such a convention. Also "Num" stands for "Number" which is now widely used across India in all languages; this wasnt the case earlier. Regards, Bhushan

16th June 2009, 06:52 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Am looking forward to complete pictures of the sword and better detailed pics of the blade and the pattern. From what we can see in the pic provided, the blade is of pattern welded steel. I would not classify it as a bird's eye pattern as the circular patterns we see are much more elongated than what you typically see associated with the bird's eye pattern. That pattern the circular patterns are much tighter and in closer proximation that what is pictured. However, the pattern shown does show promise to being an active pattern weld probably with the circular patterns throughout the central portion of the blade and I would guess some wavy, longitudinal laminations along the edge and possibly along the spine.

23rd June 2009, 08:10 AM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Thank you so much Rick for your insight on the metallurgy of this fascinating piece! I am always amazed at your astute eye in discerning the sometimes very intricate detail in these blade patterns. I am hoping this information will help in trying to assess the likely provenance of this sword, which has a hilt quite unusual...really looking forward to seeing more on it when it arrives in Gav's lair!!!! All the best, Jim

27th September 2009, 10:16 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	It seems to me that most, if not all, the armoury markings are 'relativity' new, although the blade/sword could be a lot older .