Battered Datu Kris for comment - restoration tips needed

[kai]

This Moro kris was sold by a Portugese family from California. It's supposed to have been "obtained" during the Spanish-American war but there are no details since the persons who may have heard the story first-hand are long dead. Actually, the poor blade must have spend considerable time "in storage" - there's some damage to the tip (maybe partly "original"?).

The half-waved blade is of the Mindanao "crossover" type (sensu Cato); the 7 luks are pretty subdued. It has a deeply forged fuller along the full length which makes it feel light for its size (length 549 mm/21.6" + 65 mm/2.6" tang; width 41.5 mm/1.6" and thickness 5 mm at base of blade; gangya spread 128.5 mm/5.1" and 12.2 mm/0.48" thick; weight 477 g). The utilized steels, the inner core and the outer layers, seem to be both pattern welded. The asang-asang is forged of iron - this integral type extends below the hilt till the end of the grip. The kakatua hilt carved from banati wood still has a silver band at the base but any wrapped twine (or braided wire) is long gone. I suppose this is a datu piece mainly based on the elaborate silver inlay which would be inappropriate for any Moro of lower status AFAIK. I guess this could originate from Maguindanao (i. e. a Luma) since the silver band is plain and I'd expect a far more elaborately embellished hilt if it were of Maranao origin. (No original scabbard to glean additional information from.)

The following pics show the blade after rust removal by pineapple juice. Most of the blade is in good condition (some pitting at the tip though) but quite rough which tends to obscure the nice lamination pattern, especially towards the tip. Would it be advisable to (moderately) repolish it by hand followed by a final etching to restore the original appearance of this Moro blade?

Any and all comments appreciated!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

right side...

[kai]

left side...

[kai]

Left side of blade...

[kai]

I have seen similar features on keris melayu - a shared (though rare) theme?

[kai]

... in original condition (asang-asang already cleaned).

[kai]

Asang-asang forged from a single piece of iron.

[Battara]

Kai, what is really nice about this puppy is that you have the silver inlay intact. A rare thing indeed. Regarding restoration, you may want to consider wrapping the hilt below the pommel in silver okir bands. I would take a little time to polish the silver inlay. If you want, you can email me on other matters of restoration, or if you want me to do any of it. Would take too long to exlain everything on this posting and not sure if this is the proper place to do it. You are right in that this is a datu piece.

[Bill]

nice old kris. the pictures make it hard to tell the real condition. even hand poishing with light abrasive compond may pull up rust deteriorated metal particles that might scratch the inlay, if your not carefull. You might try buying a soft cotton mop, put the handle in a vise, so that the strings hang freely. streak one side with a fine abasive compond and the other with final polish. Componds contain silica and should not be inhaled, wear leather gloves so you don't cut yourself. if you keep changing where you insert the sword into the mop head, you are less likely to cause scratches; the tips of the mop can be used for working certain areas. Good Luck, post some pics when you are done.

[kai]

Thanks, Battara!

Originally Posted by Battara

Regarding restoration, you may want to consider wrapping the hilt below the pommel in silver okir bands.

I was also considering (partially?) wrapping with braided silver wire. What would be typical Maguindanao style for this period? Maybe members with Maguindanao kris could post pics of the hilts for comparison (I assume many fittings of old pieces in the US will be roughly from this period)? TIA!

I would take a little time to polish the silver inlay.

Sure, I'll polish the silver after everything else is done. I want to finish the iron work first since I'm a bit weary about leaving any protective stuff on the surrounding steel which may mess with the final etching...

Thanks again for your feedback!

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hi Bill,

Originally Posted by Bill

nice old kris. the pictures make it hard to tell the real condition.

Would larger but slower loading pics be preferred by most members? 800 pixels width allow easier reading/printing of the text but using higher resolution (150 dpi?) would allow zooming in if needed.

even hand poishing with light abrasive compond may pull up rust deteriorated metal particles that might scratch the inlay, if your not carefull.

Ok, I'll be extra careful. The inlay area will only need light polishing anyway - it's the tip (or maybe a third of the blade) which needs more work.

You might try buying a soft cotton mop, put the handle in a vise, so that the strings hang freely.

So the long side of the mop is parallel to the floor and its surface vertical, so that the strings hang down (on top of each other) or is the mop's surface pointing to the ground (i.e. normal working position)?

streak one side with a fine abasive compond and the other with final polish.

Please explain! (The mops I'm thinking of have only a single working surface and loading freely hanging strings with differing compounds sounds weird... What I'm missing here?)

Good Luck, post some pics when you are done.

Thanks, I'll surely post pics of the finished blade! And possibly pics of any intermediate stages if I come up with more questions...

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Hello Kai , here is one example of fairly simple silver braiding .

As for increasing your images to 150dpi wouldn't this adversely affect the dimensions of the images you can upload ?

[Bill]

My thoughts of the mop is that the fiber are woven, and tiny pieces of metal will either go into the indentions or fall;+lots of surface on all those strings,& cheap. You can buy all different degree's of compounds-cutting,pre-polish,&polishing. Once you mix them you only have the coursest. Put one in one area & another one in a different area, using the courser one first. While a moderatly abrasive like "tripoli" may be fine for the steel, it won't be gentle on the silver, for your situation. There is probably 20 differant degrees of componds for polishing, alone. Battara, Federico, or anyone else may want to jump in here. Myself, I'm a little worried about how much damage has been done by the rust, you may start to loose some of your surface.

[Federico]

The problem I have always had with inlay and restoring kris has been in the etching vs the polishing. The acid can seep underneath the inlay and loosen it, or it can eat away at the thin inlay real fast vs its eat rate for steel. In certain cases, I have used a thin layer of clear nail polish to protect inlay or other fittings (such as asang-asang) when etching. High grit sandpaper (eg. 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, etc...), is relatively gentle. You could always start at a higher grit. I would just personally avoid over-etching, or long soaks in acid, as it can add a topographical etch, that at least in what I have seen, has not been typical of Moro swords. The polishing compound idea, can work depending on the compound, but there is always a danger that some compounds contain a portective additive that can sometimes create more of a mess than theyre worth (eg. brasso). Jewelers red rouge is nice, and goes a long way. If the rust is isolated in spots, you could just use #0000 steel wool, a gentle hand, and some WD-40 (or other penetratin oil), to clean it off. Anyways, nice kris, and great inlay.

Kai, if you decide to send to Battara for restoration, you may want to think about adding a silver collar underneath the cockatua below, above the wrap.

[Battara]

Federico has a very good point on the over etching. Light etching to bring out pamor is fine and won't really affect the inlay. Over etching in the way he describes is for Javanese pieces, etc., and will pop out the inlay (thus I have not seen much in true inlay in Javanese pieces).

Will try to post a Maguindanao datu hilt when I get the chance. A typical Maguindanao hilt might consist of okir bands, top and bottom, and possibly interspaced between wrapped twisted woven bands of silver. Okir bands in this case may mean gold over copper/brass or silver.

[kai]

Hi Rick,

Thanks for the pic!

Originally Posted by Rick

As for increasing your images to 150dpi wouldn't this adversely affect the dimensions of the images you can upload ?

No, I can upload larger files but tried to keep them as small as possible so that loading a thread doesn't take too long. I'm still in an experimental phase and not yet satisfied with the quality of the pics shown by me...

Regards,
Kai

[Rick]

Keep in mind the average dpi display of a computer monitor .
Isn't it 70 or so ?

[kai]

Originally Posted by Bill

You can buy all different degree's of compounds-cutting,pre-polish,&polishing. Once you mix them you only have the coursest. Put one in one area & another one in a different area

Ok, now I got it - thanks Bill!
I'll probably use different mops for each compound to be on the safe side.

While a moderatly abrasive like "tripoli" may be fine for the steel, it won't be gentle on the silver, for your situation.

The area with the silver inlay doesn't need much polishing - I'll try very fine sandpaper here to avoid digging into the inlay, I guess...

Myself, I'm a little worried about how much damage has been done by the rust, you may start to loose some of your surface.

The blade is now free of rust (except for the tang which I'll work on separately) or other loose particles. I realize that I won't get back a smooth tip and am going to keep polishing (and associated abrasion) to a minimum.

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Originally Posted by Federico

The problem I have always had with inlay and restoring kris has been in the etching vs the polishing. The acid can seep underneath the inlay and loosen it, or it can eat away at the thin inlay real fast vs its eat rate for steel. In certain cases, I have used a thin layer of clear nail polish to protect inlay or other fittings (such as asang-asang) when etching. High grit sandpaper (eg. 600, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000, 2500, etc...), is relatively gentle. You could always start at a higher grit.

Thanks, Federico. I'll try to keep on the safe side...

I would just personally avoid over-etching, or long soaks in acid, as it can add a topographical etch, that at least in what I have seen, has not been typical of Moro swords.

There's certainly no topographical etch as of now. For Moro weapons I'm looking more for something like a Balinese finish - smooth steel with a brief final etching to bring out the pamor and darken the blade a bit. In this case that won't work out for the tip (without excessive steel removal) but keeping the blade intact as possible is my primary concern.

The polishing compound idea, can work depending on the compound, but there is always a danger that some compounds contain a portective additive that can sometimes create more of a mess than theyre worth (eg. brasso). Jewelers red rouge is nice, and goes a long way.

It certainly pays to get professional polishing compounds rather than undocumented household stuff. I have several grades including pure Tripoli - I'll compare that to similar graded sandpaper.

BTW, did anybody tried oil based polish vs. water based paste?

if you decide to send to Battara for restoration,

Someday I'll surely go for a competent silverwork upgrade but money's too tight these days...

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Thanks, Battara!

Originally Posted by Battara

Federico has a very good point on the over etching. Light etching to bring out pamor is fine and won't really affect the inlay. Over etching in the way he describes is for Javanese pieces, etc., and will pop out the inlay (thus I have not seen much in true inlay in Javanese pieces).

Sure. I'm more a keris Melayu guy and like to keep a slick looking blade...

Will try to post a Maguindanao datu hilt when I get the chance. A typical Maguindanao hilt might consist of okir bands, top and bottom, and possibly interspaced between wrapped twisted woven bands of silver. Okir bands in this case may mean gold over copper/brass or silver.

To keep in line with Moro machismo, I'd probably settle for swaasa rather than gold.

I'm looking forward to seeing more Maguindanao datu hilts!

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

As promised, here is a Maguindanao kris I have that is closest to yours. The hilt has an ivory pommel, the bands are of okired swaasa over copper and braided twisted silver. The bottom band is silver.

Enjoy!

PS. (I also do installment plans ).

[kai]

Originally Posted by Battara

As promised, here is a Maguindanao kris I have that is closest to yours. The hilt has an ivory pommel, the bands are of okired swaasa over copper and braided twisted silver. The bottom band is silver.

Thanks, Battara - that's a really nice hilt! How old is it approximately? Are those 2 central swaasa bands hexagonal?

PS. (I also do installment plans ).

Well, that's more difficult to cover up though...

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

Thanks. I'm pleased. The age of this puppy is I would guess around 1890s. The orange swaasa bands are round, they look hexoganal...well...because I used the poor man's camera - the church scanner.

[kai]

Here's a link to a somewhat similar example: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1804

However, the inlay just reaches into the fuller (which is also less wide), whereas the fuller extends more towards the base in my blade so that the inlay is completely within the fuller.

BTW, isn't Artzi's dating a bit early for his piece?

Regards,
Kai