Armenian yataghan

[Ian]

In the recurring discussions here of the Black Sea Yataghan/Laz Bishaq, a possible Armenian connection has been raised several times. Here is a deeply recurved Armernian sword that sold recently at auction which is reminiscent of the BSY. The pictures are from the auction. I hope someone here got it!

The auction description:

A RARE ARMENIAN YATAGHAN SWORD, GOLD INLAY, 19TH CENTURY. The blade is deeply recurved, with three narrow fullers along the spine, the entire surface inlaid in elaborate running vine motifs in gold. The bronze hilt with elongated triangular ears, embellished with wolves hunting amongst vegetation and a large baldheaded, mustachioed male figure with arms upraised. Mid-19th century. The earliest Armenian historian, Moses of Khoren (c. 410-490 c.e.?) records in his History of Armenia, an ancient Armenian god known as Kund (or Bald) Aramazd who presided over Navasand, the Armenian New Year.

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[Jim McDougall]

I agree Ian, I hope somebody here got it as well. As you know, the 'Black Sea Yataghan' 'discussions' were pretty drawn out, and I had been researching those since I first got one back in the mid 90s.

These are part of the genre that includes the so called Black Sea yataghan, years later found to be a Laz bichagi, from these people situated in various Transcaucasian and Anatolian regions.

In the 1962 book by Gerhard Seifert , "Schwert Degen Sabel", one of the 'Black Sea Yataghans' was pictured and identified as a KURDISH ARMENIAN YATAGHAN. When I spoke with him, he told me he had been informed of that ID by his mentor (as he said) Holgar Jacobsen of Denmark, the author of "Origins of the Shashka" (1941), who had included these in his paper.
In the paper, this form was shown with others in this group, in a plate from an obscure work by Count Jeno Vichy, of Hungary, on his travels in the Caucusus and Central Asia...titled "A Magyar Faj Vander Pa'Sa'" .
In this the swords are termed 'kardok'. simply the Hungarian term for sword.

Possibly this might explain the Armenian label? These varied types seem to have gotten around, and according to someone I knew in Tblisi, they were far from unknown in those areas as well.

I dont think we ever got any kind of resolution on these types of swords with these odd cleft hilts, and this one with the radically curved blade is truly an anomaly...Ive seen them before but only one or two over many years

[Marius66]

Excuse me the question, but which is the edged side in this yatagan ??
Can it be used in fight or just déco ? It don't look like a kopesh

Or can both sides be sharpened ? Especially at the end on the blade/ the ''sickle'' part

[AvtoGaz]

Originally Posted by Ian

In the recurring discussions here of the Black Sea Yataghan/Laz Bishaq, a possible Armenian connection has been raised several times. Here is a deeply recurved Armernian sword that sold recently at auction which is reminiscent of the BSY. The pictures are from the auction. I hope someone here got it!

The auction description:
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I was the lucky buyer! If anyone is interested, will provide some pictures when it arrives.

[Ian]

Congratulations AvtoGaz! That's a very beautiful and unusual sword. More pictures are always welcome, especially for such an unusual piece.

[Ian]

Originally Posted by Marius66

Excuse me the question, but which is the edged side in this yatagan ??
Can it be used in fight or just déco ? ...

The three fullers run along the spine of the blade. The cutting edge is along the lower part of the blade in the first image. Perhaps its new owner can tell us if it has a partly sharpened back edge.

I think this one is primarily decorative (but probably functional if the blade is sharp).

[Jim McDougall]

This is an atavistic weapon intended as something prestigious and likely a votive element for ceremonial or traditional presence.

I have seen similar examples with this peaked pommel hilt instead of the horned or cleft types, and these dramatically parabolic blades are primarily embellishments, not pragmatically intended.

This type seems related to ancient forms having to do with the Near East, and Egypt into the Bronze Age, which include the Egyptian 'khopesh' and the 'sapara' which is a related form attributed to peoples in the Near East regions.

Naturally the appearance of these curious weapons from Anatolian, Transcaucasian and 'Armenian' regions are not 'to the letter' as far as the 'khopesh' and other 'sickle' type (for dramatic curve) swords from iconographic sources, as they are 'atavistic' interpretations. not intended as exact copies.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is an atavistic weapon intended as something prestigious and likely a votive element for ceremonial or traditional presence.

I have seen similar examples with this peaked pommel hilt instead of the horned or cleft types, and these dramatically parabolic blades are primarily embellishments, not pragmatically intended.

Marius66 if you look closely at the convex edge you can see the awl marks from the entrustment procedures. So, it was never sharpened again after manufacture. With the decoration so close to the edge you would need to sharpen at an incredibly acute angle, probably meeting at 90 degrees, 45 degrees or more of an angle from the sharpening stone. If used a very durable edge roughly the edge of a non-race tuned ski, but not very sharp. The concave edge looks to be ground to have for lack of a better term a yelman. As Ian said you would have to examine it to see if it was ever sharpened, but since the primary edge was never maintained the false edge probably wasn't either.

I would like the see a picture of the edge around the center of percussion. In some ways this reminds me of some of the ceremonial knives in Elgood's Hindu Arms and Ritual in terms of practicality as a weapon.