Spanish Gun Question 18th & early 19th Cen.

[SuperCracker]

Hi guys. Long time lurking here, figured it was time to take part as you lot are probably most likely to be able to help me with a gunsmithing related question. Try as I might, I have not been able to lay hands on an original to examine.

I see on a lot of Muzzleloading Spanish Guns (18th & 19th C) where the hole for the ramrod extends all the way through the stock probably to the butt plate. I can't figure out how this would be done as

1. It doesn't look like it could be drilled as a single hole as on many it looks like it would pop out of the wrist.

2. How are they generally arranged so the Trigger and Barrel tang bolt do not interfere?

[fernando]

Welcome to the forum, SuperCracker .
Say, aren't you confused ... or am i ?
Why should ramrods penetrate as far as all the way through the stock ? .
Ramrods being approx. as long as the barrel length, do not need to 'dive' so deep as to reach the tang screw.
Perhaps i am missing something in your approach ?

[SuperCracker]

I know what you mean and this appears to be fairly exclusive to spanish guns. A style thing I'm sure. For example, the double gun shown in this thread. The ramrod extends all the way to the butt plate.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=aguirre
It could pass between the 2 trigger bars, but how does the Ramrod miss the tang screw?

Or on these guns?


(I've saved thousands of pictures of interesting guns I find on the web. Apologies if these are pictures from someone here..... as they likely are. lol)

[fernando]

Of course you are right; silly me. I was too quick to react.
The hunting escopetas with only half stock and no pipes for the ramrod. I once had one of those, but i don't remember if the ramrod was complete and what the solution was.
Well, it gets through somehow; no magic, right?
Does the stock have enough mass so that the rod passes close to the tang screw and continues down to the butt in a slight angle ?

[fernando]

Let's see if Fernando K comes in with an explanation

[Marcus den toom]

If i where to take a guess, it would be a hole drilled from the butstock where the butplate covers the wood (and also the hole).
Also, the tang could be attached by a normal screw instead of a bolt that is going completly trough the wrist of the stock (and the trigger plate idem dito).

I never owned such a piece so.. hard to tell from fact from my point

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

... Also, the tang could be attached by a normal screw instead of a bolt that is going completly trough the wrist of the stock ...

Ah, i wouldn't think so; too risky.

[fernando]

I have contacted someone in Spain well connected to Spanish weaponry.

Here is his comment:

Ocasionalmente he encontrado escopetas como las que me describe, de media caña con el baquetero taladrado hasta introducirse en la culata, pero siempre ha sido para baquetas de hierro, con alguna flexibilidad, no recuerdo ninguna de madera, como la de la fotografía... lo que esta fuera de discusión, es que si la baqueta tiene la longitud apropiada para empujar la carga hasta la recámara, y en una escopeta de media caña no sobresale del baquetero, es que el baquetero atraviesa la garganta del arma y se prolonga por la culata, sin que ello interfiera en el funcionamiento de la llave...
diría yo...


Meaning that ...
Exmples of half stocked guns with the ramrod penetrating all the way through the stock butt are those offten seen with the rod made of an iron, so that its flexibility easily bypasses the lock function and tang bolt. Although the ramrod in the example shown here is made of wood, it is out of discussion that it has to be long enough to push the load down to the chamber, so the principle of its introduction into the stock should be the same.

[SuperCracker]

Originally Posted by Marcus den toom

If i where to take a guess, it would be a hole drilled from the butstock where the butplate covers the wood (and also the hole).
Also, the tang could be attached by a normal screw instead of a bolt that is going completly trough the wrist of the stock (and the trigger plate idem dito).

I never owned such a piece so.. hard to tell from fact from my point

I thought about it maybe being a wood screw rather than a through bolt, but I've only ever seen that done on the very lowest end American longrifles. And even on those it doesn't hold up. I can't imagine it being used on any quality weapon like the one shown.

I think the RR hole would have to be drilled as two holes that connect. I have printed out profile pics of some of these guns and it appears as though if the hole were drilled straight from the forend it would come out of the wrist. My first thought is that the first portion of the hole would be drilled from the entry pipe location to just past the breech. Then a second hole, angled down somewhat, is drilled behind the breech into the butt intersecting the first hole.

While difficult, that is doable, but still doesn't address the tang bolt.

This is giving me a headache. lol