unusual tulwar /pulwar with straight blade

chiefheadknocker · 24th May 2018, 08:23 PM

I recently picked this sword up , at first thinking its a tulwar but after researching it seems the pommel is more like a pulwar I'm confused ,also most of these swords ive seen have curved blades , this one looks very old to ,any info would be very welcome
thanks

Gustav · 24th May 2018, 08:58 PM

Actually it's Sumatran or Malayan Chenangkas, much more rare then Pulwar. There are some threads if you search for it.

ariel · 25th May 2018, 12:06 AM

Indian swords with straight blade are well-known: firangi, dhup etc.
Re . the present one:
How do we know that it is Malayan/Sumatran and not Indian with a cup-like pommel characteristic of 16-17 century or earlier ?
These are illustrated in Hamzaname ( Jens has the pic and kindly sent me a copy, but it was lost after my computer crashed) and in Elgood's book on Hindu arms and ritual ( p.128)

Here are 3 of mine.

ariel · 25th May 2018, 12:13 AM

Sorry, forgot this one

Jens Nordlunde · 25th May 2018, 05:28 PM

Ariel, well seen and well remembered - p. 128 in Elgoods book:-).
Nice show of old swords. I think most collectors go for gold/silver decorated items, and so did I when I started collecting, but now I go more for older, undecorated weapons - ozing of history:-).

I too think the sword is Indian, and Mughal/Deccan. If I am correct it is likely to be quite old.
How long is the sword/blade? The blade, of which only the hilt is shown in Elgood's book is 33 in., and the blade is European - it is not mentioned if the blade is straight or curved.
These hilts came to Sri Lanka, Sumatra, the Malayan peninsula and other places when the Indians, in earlier times started to colonize these places.

ariel · 26th May 2018, 04:38 AM

Jens,

Thanks a lot!

It is gratifying to know there are still people valuing history above the "bling"

Can you post the pic from Hamzaname that you sent me once ( and that was regretfully lost somewhere in the third dimension)?

And, BTW, old Hindu tulwar handle with a cup pommel mutated into Sumatran Piso Podang/Chenangkas just as Hindu Gulabhati handle mutated into Hulu Meu Apet

chiefheadknocker · 26th May 2018, 10:04 AM

Thanks for putting some light on this sword , thought I would mention that the blade is quite thin and very flexible ,
the blade length is 69 cm and total length with hilt 80cm
shame there is no scabbard though
thanks everyone

Jens Nordlunde · 26th May 2018, 11:03 AM

Ariel,
I dont remember which picture I sent you, but here are a few from Hamza.
It seems as if only two hilt forms were used, and notice in the picture showing many weapons, in the top left corner two of the swords have a hand guard. I dont remember tto have seen other swords with a hand guard in Hamza.

ariel · 26th May 2018, 12:57 PM

Great!!!
Many thanks!
This is a wonderful reference for this and future discussions.

Jens Nordlunde · 26th May 2018, 10:14 PM

Yes, the Hamza is very important if you want to study Indian weapons, beiing from the 16th century, and it shows a lot of different wepons, besides from telling a very special story.

chiefheadknocker · 5th July 2020, 09:47 PM

I know this is an old thread , and ive kept this sword for some time, recently i have been informed by a few sword collectors that the sword in a piso pondang , sumatra and not indian !
whats your thoughts, is this right and how can we tell ?

JBG163 · 5th July 2020, 10:13 PM

I think you right with the piso podang assumption !

Gustav · 5th July 2020, 11:17 PM

If I may suggest, just search for "chenangkas" and go to the thread "Piso Podang Batak or Borneo?" from 2011 please.

ariel · 6th July 2020, 04:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefheadknocker

I know this is an old thread , and ive kept this sword for some time, recently i have been informed by a few sword collectors that the sword in a piso pondang , sumatra and not indian !
whats your thoughts, is this right and how can we tell ?

Piso Podangs are likely to have brass handles, asymmetric swelling of the grip and much more figurative endings of the quillons. Yours has none of the above.

We seem to have a difference of opinions: nothing unusual in this field.

I rely in Hamza Nama, Elgood, Brian Isaak and Jens. Personally, I could not think of better sources of info.
But yours might be correct, too.

JBG163 · 6th July 2020, 06:07 PM

Gustav is maybe right too !
Hard choice

24th May 2018, 08:23 PM	#1
chiefheadknocker Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 143	unusual tulwar /pulwar with straight blade I recently picked this sword up , at first thinking its a tulwar but after researching it seems the pommel is more like a pulwar I'm confused ,also most of these swords ive seen have curved blades , this one looks very old to ,any info would be very welcome thanks Attached Images

25th May 2018, 12:06 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Indian swords with straight blade are well-known: firangi, dhup etc. Re . the present one: How do we know that it is Malayan/Sumatran and not Indian with a cup-like pommel characteristic of 16-17 century or earlier ? These are illustrated in Hamzaname ( Jens has the pic and kindly sent me a copy, but it was lost after my computer crashed) and in Elgood's book on Hindu arms and ritual ( p.128) Here are 3 of mine. Attached Images

25th May 2018, 12:13 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry, forgot this one Attached Images

26th May 2018, 04:38 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Jens, Thanks a lot! It is gratifying to know there are still people valuing history above the "bling" Can you post the pic from Hamzaname that you sent me once ( and that was regretfully lost somewhere in the third dimension)? And, BTW, old Hindu tulwar handle with a cup pommel mutated into Sumatran Piso Podang/Chenangkas just as Hindu Gulabhati handle mutated into Hulu Meu Apet Attached Images

26th May 2018, 11:03 AM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, I dont remember which picture I sent you, but here are a few from Hamza. It seems as if only two hilt forms were used, and notice in the picture showing many weapons, in the top left corner two of the swords have a hand guard. I dont remember tto have seen other swords with a hand guard in Hamza. Attached Images

24th May 2018, 08:58 PM	#2
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,248	Actually it's Sumatran or Malayan Chenangkas, much more rare then Pulwar. There are some threads if you search for it.

25th May 2018, 05:28 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, well seen and well remembered - p. 128 in Elgoods book:-). Nice show of old swords. I think most collectors go for gold/silver decorated items, and so did I when I started collecting, but now I go more for older, undecorated weapons - ozing of history:-). I too think the sword is Indian, and Mughal/Deccan. If I am correct it is likely to be quite old. How long is the sword/blade? The blade, of which only the hilt is shown in Elgood's book is 33 in., and the blade is European - it is not mentioned if the blade is straight or curved. These hilts came to Sri Lanka, Sumatra, the Malayan peninsula and other places when the Indians, in earlier times started to colonize these places.

26th May 2018, 10:04 AM	#7
chiefheadknocker Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 143	Thanks for putting some light on this sword , thought I would mention that the blade is quite thin and very flexible , the blade length is 69 cm and total length with hilt 80cm shame there is no scabbard though thanks everyone

26th May 2018, 12:57 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Great!!! Many thanks! This is a wonderful reference for this and future discussions.

26th May 2018, 10:14 PM	#10
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Yes, the Hamza is very important if you want to study Indian weapons, beiing from the 16th century, and it shows a lot of different wepons, besides from telling a very special story.

5th July 2020, 09:47 PM	#11
chiefheadknocker Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Posts: 143	piso podang? I know this is an old thread , and ive kept this sword for some time, recently i have been informed by a few sword collectors that the sword in a piso pondang , sumatra and not indian ! whats your thoughts, is this right and how can we tell ?

5th July 2020, 10:13 PM	#12
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 207	I think you right with the piso podang assumption !

5th July 2020, 11:17 PM	#13
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,248	If I may suggest, just search for "chenangkas" and go to the thread "Piso Podang Batak or Borneo?" from 2011 please.

6th July 2020, 06:07 PM	#15
JBG163 Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Location: France Posts: 207	Gustav is maybe right too ! Hard choice