Keris with a „spear-point-blade“

thomas hauschild · 16th August 2020, 08:07 AM

Don‘t know how describe the form of the blade better than „spear-point“. Seems to be a complex forged blade with several fine layers. Total length aprox 50 cm. I like those kind of unusual blades.

Many thanks for your comments.

JustYS · 16th August 2020, 08:33 AM

Based on my limited knowledge:

Dhapur: Karna Tinandhing
Pamor: Dadung Muntir

Since you said the length of the blade is 50 cm then it can be considered as Corok.

Cheers,

Jean · 16th August 2020, 02:01 PM

50 cm is the total length of the kris, not the blade length.

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2020, 02:11 PM

This word "corok" is a word that seems to have entered the keris lexicon quite recently.

Does anybody know when it started to be used, and by whom?

I have only ever heard it used in the sense of a stick that you use to prod somebody with --- and in one other sense that I would probably get suspended for explaining here.

Does anybody know when some obviously talented individual began to use it associated with the keris?

JustYS · 16th August 2020, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

This word "corok" is a word that seems to have entered the keris lexicon quite recently.

Does anybody know when it started to be used, and by whom?

I have only ever heard it used in the sense of a stick that you use to prod somebody with --- and in one other sense that I would probably get suspended for explaining here.

Does anybody know when some obviously talented individual began to use it associated with the keris?

Hi Alan,

I’ve heard the word Corok from Jakarta Keris dealers, they use word Corok for Keris with blade length > 40cm, and Patrem for Keris with blade length < 30cm.

When they started to use it and who started it, I don’t know.

Cheers,

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2020, 02:27 PM

Jakarta makes sense.

I doubt I will ever use the word associated with the keris.

thomas hauschild · 16th August 2020, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

50 cm is the total length of the kris, not the blade length.

Yes

Jean · 16th August 2020, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jakarta makes sense.

I doubt I will ever use the word associated with the keris.

My friend from Solo also uses the term corok for these long Javanese blades, it seems to be common among the kris dealers and collectors there.

A. G. Maisey · 16th August 2020, 11:27 PM

In recent times, perhaps it is common in Solo Jean.

There is a network of keris people all across Jawa, when a term becomes popular with people in one place it can be picked up by people in another place, particularly if one wishes to sell to those people.

Over the last 20 years or so more than a little new terminology has entered the keris lexicon, and this is only a reflection of the nature of language generally. My intensive education in keris began in about 1974, and it slowed down in 1995 when my principal teacher, Empu Suparman Supowijoyo passed, it came to a dead stop in 2014 when my other teacher, Pande Seni Keris Pauzan Pusposukadgo passed. Pak Pauzan, or Pak Pus as he was known to his friends would never accept the honorific of "Empu", it conflicted with his religious beliefs.

So, you see Jean, my way of speaking, writing and thinking about keris is stuck in a time warp:- I am not at all well educated in the language of Jakarta dealers, nor of those who populate the fringes of the World of the Javanese Keris, and when I consider the other ways in which the word "corok" is used, and the fact that I have only heard & seen it used in recent times as a keris descriptor, frankly, I would prefer not to use it.

Others, of course, can use whatever language they wish, it is everybody's prerogative to express themselves in whatever way they wish.

David · 18th August 2020, 05:11 PM

To bring this back to the original heading description, i don't think i would describe this blade as having a "spear point".
JustYS called this dhapur Karno Tinanding, but it is not quite that either in spite of the two kembang kacang. It has a gonjo like keris sepang, which you would not find on Karno Tinanding.
I suspect that this is a fairly recent keris that has been aged for that effect. So yes, it is an unusual dhapur, but then we see many unusual dhapur in more recent keris and often they are aged to give the look of being antique because many other like yourself Thomas (and to some extent even myself), enjoy finding older keris with unusual, even out of pakem dhapurs.
I'm am not sure what would be a proper name for this dhapur. Karno Tinanding/Sepang? Maybe someone will come up with something more creative than that.

thomas hauschild · 18th August 2020, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

To bring this back to the original heading description, i don't think i would describe this blade as having a "spear point".
JustYS called this dhapur Karno Tinanding, but it is not quite that either in spite of the two kembang kacang. It has a gonjo like keris sepang, which you would not find on Karno Tinanding.
I suspect that this is a fairly recent keris that has been aged for that effect. So yes, it is an unusual dhapur, but then we see many unusual dhapur in more recent keris and often they are aged to give the look of being antique because many other like yourself Thomas (and to some extent even myself), enjoy finding older keris with unusual, even out of pakem dhapurs.
I'm am not sure what would be a proper name for this dhapur. Karno Tinanding/Sepang? Maybe someone will come up with something more creative than that.

Many thanks david

A. G. Maisey · 18th August 2020, 11:14 PM

If we look at the wilah of this keris it is Semar Tinandu, but this dhapur would normally have a gonjo with a sirah cecak, with this keris under discussion, the gonjo seems to be divorced from the wilah, it is out of place, doesn't belong.

I'd be inclined to call it a variation of Semar Tinandu.

Jean · 19th August 2020, 11:18 AM

I have a similar piece which looks to have some age, see pic.

Jean · 20th August 2020, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I'd be inclined to call it a variation of Semar Tinandu.

Hello Alan,
Dapur Semar Tinandu as described on page 25 of the book Dhapur (Surakarta pakem) and in the book Keris Jawa is quite different from this one? (single kembang kacang and long sogokan to the point especially).
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2020, 10:30 AM

Yes Jean, it is, but I didn't bother to look at the Ska pakem or anything else, I was running on memory, and that memory is ingrained from personal experience.

If you look at Ensiklopedi you will see that not everybody uses the Ska Pakem all the time. In fact, there is more than a little variation between the Ska pakem and what people in the trade, and collectors who work with keris call particular dhapurs.

I'm pretty OK with staying with the Ska pakem most of the time, but that doesn't mean that I use those designations all the time. I like the Ska pakem because I think most people are now aware of it and use it and understand it. But I'm not averse to using something else if it fits.

I'm never going to get all upset about things if somebody wants to call something a different dhapur or pamor. There is in fact no real standard, when you're part of group you try to stay with what the group understands because it avoids argument.

Nothing to do with keris is carved in stone.

For instance, that similar keris you posted a pic of. If it did not have kembang kacang I'd call it Dhapur Regol. Now go and have a look at Regol in the Ska Pakem, then look at Regol in Ensiklopedi. Neither one is unquestionably right nor wrong, but because the Ska Pakem was composed under the aegis of the kraton, it is taken as having more authority. Harsrinuksmo gathered his info from present day collectors and keris study groups.

Take your pick.

If you care to do a dhapur by dhapur comparison of the ska pakem with other references you will find more than a little variation.

Jean · 20th August 2020, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For instance, that similar keris you posted a pic of. If it did not have kembang kacang I'd call it Dhapur Regol. Now go and have a look at Regol in the Ska Pakem, then look at Regol in Ensiklopedi. Neither one is unquestionably right nor wrong, but because the Ska Pakem was composed under the aegis of the kraton, it is taken as having more authority. Harsrinuksmo gathered his info from present day collectors and keris study groups.

Take your pick.

If you care to do a dhapur by dhapur comparison of the ska pakem with other references you will find more than a little variation.

Hello Alan,
Yes, you are correct. BTW the descriptions of one of the versions of dhapur Karna Tinanding and Semar Tinandu in the EK are very similar.

A. G. Maisey · 20th August 2020, 10:25 PM

Yes.

I don't really know when all these naming conventions took root, my guess is probably during Mataram. The very simple dhapurs and pamors seem to be pretty constant in the naming used, but the the more complex ones vary a lot. Its probably always best to qualify whatever name we use. I don't always do this, but I should try to get into the habit, Trouble is I mostly write off the top of my head, from memory, I'm too lazy to try to find a reference to substantiate everything I say --- and often I cannot in any case.

16th August 2020, 08:07 AM	#1
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	Keris with a „spear-point-blade“ Don‘t know how describe the form of the blade better than „spear-point“. Seems to be a complex forged blade with several fine layers. Total length aprox 50 cm. I like those kind of unusual blades. Many thanks for your comments. Attached Images

16th August 2020, 11:27 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	In recent times, perhaps it is common in Solo Jean. There is a network of keris people all across Jawa, when a term becomes popular with people in one place it can be picked up by people in another place, particularly if one wishes to sell to those people. Over the last 20 years or so more than a little new terminology has entered the keris lexicon, and this is only a reflection of the nature of language generally. My intensive education in keris began in about 1974, and it slowed down in 1995 when my principal teacher, Empu Suparman Supowijoyo passed, it came to a dead stop in 2014 when my other teacher, Pande Seni Keris Pauzan Pusposukadgo passed. Pak Pauzan, or Pak Pus as he was known to his friends would never accept the honorific of "Empu", it conflicted with his religious beliefs. So, you see Jean, my way of speaking, writing and thinking about keris is stuck in a time warp:- I am not at all well educated in the language of Jakarta dealers, nor of those who populate the fringes of the World of the Javanese Keris, and when I consider the other ways in which the word "corok" is used, and the fact that I have only heard & seen it used in recent times as a keris descriptor, frankly, I would prefer not to use it. Others, of course, can use whatever language they wish, it is everybody's prerogative to express themselves in whatever way they wish. Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 17th August 2020 at 09:20 AM. Reason: clarification.

19th August 2020, 11:18 AM	#13
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I have a similar piece which looks to have some age, see pic. Attached Images

16th August 2020, 08:33 AM	#2
JustYS Member Join Date: Apr 2019 Posts: 138	Based on my limited knowledge: Dhapur: Karna Tinandhing Pamor: Dadung Muntir Since you said the length of the blade is 50 cm then it can be considered as Corok. Cheers,

16th August 2020, 02:01 PM	#3
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	50 cm is the total length of the kris, not the blade length.

16th August 2020, 02:11 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	This word "corok" is a word that seems to have entered the keris lexicon quite recently. Does anybody know when it started to be used, and by whom? I have only ever heard it used in the sense of a stick that you use to prod somebody with --- and in one other sense that I would probably get suspended for explaining here. Does anybody know when some obviously talented individual began to use it associated with the keris?

16th August 2020, 02:27 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Jakarta makes sense. I doubt I will ever use the word associated with the keris.

18th August 2020, 05:11 PM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	To bring this back to the original heading description, i don't think i would describe this blade as having a "spear point". JustYS called this dhapur Karno Tinanding, but it is not quite that either in spite of the two kembang kacang. It has a gonjo like keris sepang, which you would not find on Karno Tinanding. I suspect that this is a fairly recent keris that has been aged for that effect. So yes, it is an unusual dhapur, but then we see many unusual dhapur in more recent keris and often they are aged to give the look of being antique because many other like yourself Thomas (and to some extent even myself), enjoy finding older keris with unusual, even out of pakem dhapurs. I'm am not sure what would be a proper name for this dhapur. Karno Tinanding/Sepang? Maybe someone will come up with something more creative than that.

18th August 2020, 11:14 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	If we look at the wilah of this keris it is Semar Tinandu, but this dhapur would normally have a gonjo with a sirah cecak, with this keris under discussion, the gonjo seems to be divorced from the wilah, it is out of place, doesn't belong. I'd be inclined to call it a variation of Semar Tinandu.

20th August 2020, 10:30 AM	#15
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes Jean, it is, but I didn't bother to look at the Ska pakem or anything else, I was running on memory, and that memory is ingrained from personal experience. If you look at Ensiklopedi you will see that not everybody uses the Ska Pakem all the time. In fact, there is more than a little variation between the Ska pakem and what people in the trade, and collectors who work with keris call particular dhapurs. I'm pretty OK with staying with the Ska pakem most of the time, but that doesn't mean that I use those designations all the time. I like the Ska pakem because I think most people are now aware of it and use it and understand it. But I'm not averse to using something else if it fits. I'm never going to get all upset about things if somebody wants to call something a different dhapur or pamor. There is in fact no real standard, when you're part of group you try to stay with what the group understands because it avoids argument. Nothing to do with keris is carved in stone. For instance, that similar keris you posted a pic of. If it did not have kembang kacang I'd call it Dhapur Regol. Now go and have a look at Regol in the Ska Pakem, then look at Regol in Ensiklopedi. Neither one is unquestionably right nor wrong, but because the Ska Pakem was composed under the aegis of the kraton, it is taken as having more authority. Harsrinuksmo gathered his info from present day collectors and keris study groups. Take your pick. If you care to do a dhapur by dhapur comparison of the ska pakem with other references you will find more than a little variation.

20th August 2020, 10:25 PM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes. I don't really know when all these naming conventions took root, my guess is probably during Mataram. The very simple dhapurs and pamors seem to be pretty constant in the naming used, but the the more complex ones vary a lot. Its probably always best to qualify whatever name we use. I don't always do this, but I should try to get into the habit, Trouble is I mostly write off the top of my head, from memory, I'm too lazy to try to find a reference to substantiate everything I say --- and often I cannot in any case.