Mughal sword handle. Am I dreaming?

ariel · 4th June 2012, 10:58 PM

This is a very nice handle, but 841 GBP ( $1,290)?
Enlighten me, what am I missing?

Andrew · 5th June 2012, 12:06 AM

Looks like what's missing is the distal blade...

ariel · 5th June 2012, 02:49 AM

Just a small piece of it:-)

That was honestly mentioned. And still.....

Battara · 5th June 2012, 03:56 AM

I'm with you Ariel. I can see some money for the hilt, but THAT much money?.......

asomotif · 5th June 2012, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

This is a very nice handle, but 841 GBP ( $1,290)?
Enlighten me, what am I missing?

If the buyer is from India, you might have missed the ecenomic growth in India.

Best regards,
Willem

Atlantia · 5th June 2012, 09:49 AM

Hmm, I guess we all had that one on watch.
I wasn't expecting the end price to be anywhere near that.

RSWORD · 5th June 2012, 01:56 PM

Well, I for one am very please to see the price it obtained particularly since I have an example with very similar hilt.

Here is my example. Near identical in overall shape with differing koftgari motifs. I would place both examples in the 18th century and offer that it is a fairly rare handle style and would be of academic interest to the advanced and serious collectors.

ariel · 5th June 2012, 08:40 PM

Yours has a much better preserved gold decorations. If Indian economy gets any better, you will become a VERY, VERY rich man!
:-)

Atlantia · 5th June 2012, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RSWORD

Well, I for one am very please to see the price it obtained particularly since I have an example with very similar hilt.

Here is my example. Near identical in overall shape with differing koftgari motifs. I would place both examples in the 18th century and offer that it is a fairly rare handle style and would be of academic interest to the advanced and serious collectors.

Lovely sword Rick.
One of Tipu's knights?

Battara · 6th June 2012, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Yours has a much better preserved gold decorations. If Indian economy gets any better, you will become a VERY, VERY rich man!
:-)

Which would mean Indian pieces would be out of the price range for a number of us......

Emanuel · 6th June 2012, 06:37 AM

Indian economy is slowing down actually.

Still, I am finding that a lot of the wealthy Indians here are indeed snapping up antiques, arms and armour included.

ALEX · 6th June 2012, 12:27 PM

Nothing wrong with the price, especially considering the global market. It is a nice and authentic antique item. I agree with Rick, it is at least 18th century or a bit earlier hilt of good quality. Good for both the buyer and seller:-)
when one thinks: "would be nice to buy it for $100", then it looks really expensive when it goes above $1000:-)

Atlantia · 6th June 2012, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

when one thinks: "would be nice to buy it for $100", then it looks really expensive when it goes above $1000:-)

LOL, How very true! It's our old enemy: Wishful thinking!

How many times has that stopped me buying something I should have?

-They can't all be 'flea market' bargains sadly

Tim Simmons · 6th June 2012, 03:46 PM

I have to agree with "ariel" quite attractive, common without a blade, £841 far too much! Think what else you could get for that money with shiny bits and a scabbard? Gold leaf blindness?

ariel · 7th June 2012, 12:57 PM

Something is happening to the Indian weapons: about 2-3 years ago there started to appear obviously new ( and even advertised as such!) Indian swords and daggers of rather decent workmanship. Now, the market is awash in newly-made or renovated ( old blade + new handle)and artficially-aged tulwars, khandas, khanjars etc, with asking prices starting at $1,000.One can still see the incongruities, but the sellers do not seem to care. Many just dropped the designations "old" or "replica" altogether and sell them as is: caveat emptor!
It became a real industry there. From the collectors' point of view, this is much worse than the "chinese invasion" of illiterate, pure fantasy, pseudo-russian, pseudo-french, pseudo-chinese etc junk. The indian stuff is much closer to genuine objects, and the artistic/historical/technical level is several orders of magnitude higher. If they get any better ( and they will, I am afraid!), we will have a real problem, akin to a meteoric transition of caucasian weapons from genuine samples to sophisticated and highly professional forgery.
Are they sold in India, and are they commanding high prices? Emanuel, you are close to the ground; what is your feel?

Emanuel · 7th June 2012, 01:53 PM

Ariel for the moment my exposure has been only to Hyderabad and Goa and to the experiences of the Indian collectors I've met and it's been very limited. Other forum members understand the situation much better than I do.

It seems that the craft is alive and very strong in northern India, particularly in Punjab where the Sikh market is very strong. The spectrum runs from dealers selling old pieces to smiths making good quality weapons and companies making "cheap" replicas. I know of Sikh Gatka practitioners in Toronto periodically making trips back to Punjab to buy equipment.

At the same time, based on my experience here in Hyderabad, it seems there isn't that much stuff lying around anymore, at least not here in the South. The old princely armouries like Mysore are actually keeping their arsenals under lock and the antique/junk shops have nothing. I Goa I went to a number of shops/flee markets and such and I asked around, I found nothing. You'd think that what with the place's history and Portuguese presence there would be good stuff left around.

Complicating things is that owning, buying/selling edged weapons is illegal unless one has special dispensation/permits. Sikhs are among the few that can legally own and bear sharp weapons. This is understandable, although generally quite tolerant, crowds here are passionate and easily swayed. Marches, parades and festivals can easily turn violent, and no government here wants armed crowds slaughtering each other.

All of this I think contributes to a rise in prices, both local and global.

Jens Nordlunde · 13th June 2012, 06:06 PM

I am with Alex, and it may even be late 18th century.
As to the price - if you don't like it, don't buy it

.
Speaking about prices, when I started to collect in 1967 the prices were.....
Jens

4th June 2012, 10:58 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Mughal sword handle. Am I dreaming? This is a very nice handle, but 841 GBP ( $1,290)? Enlighten me, what am I missing? Attached Images

5th June 2012, 01:56 PM	#7
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Well, I for one am very please to see the price it obtained particularly since I have an example with very similar hilt. Here is my example. Near identical in overall shape with differing koftgari motifs. I would place both examples in the 18th century and offer that it is a fairly rare handle style and would be of academic interest to the advanced and serious collectors. Attached Images

13th June 2012, 06:06 PM	#17
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	I am with Alex, and it may even be late 18th century. As to the price - if you don't like it, don't buy it. Speaking about prices, when I started to collect in 1967 the prices were..... Jens

5th June 2012, 12:06 AM	#2
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Looks like what's missing is the distal blade...

5th June 2012, 02:49 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Just a small piece of it:-) That was honestly mentioned. And still.....

5th June 2012, 03:56 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I'm with you Ariel. I can see some money for the hilt, but THAT much money?.......

5th June 2012, 09:49 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hmm, I guess we all had that one on watch. I wasn't expecting the end price to be anywhere near that.

5th June 2012, 08:40 PM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yours has a much better preserved gold decorations. If Indian economy gets any better, you will become a VERY, VERY rich man! :-)

6th June 2012, 06:37 AM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Indian economy is slowing down actually. Still, I am finding that a lot of the wealthy Indians here are indeed snapping up antiques, arms and armour included.

6th June 2012, 12:27 PM	#12
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Nothing wrong with the price, especially considering the global market. It is a nice and authentic antique item. I agree with Rick, it is at least 18th century or a bit earlier hilt of good quality. Good for both the buyer and seller:-) when one thinks: "would be nice to buy it for $100", then it looks really expensive when it goes above $1000:-)

6th June 2012, 03:46 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I have to agree with "ariel" quite attractive, common without a blade, £841 far too much! Think what else you could get for that money with shiny bits and a scabbard? Gold leaf blindness?

7th June 2012, 12:57 PM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Something is happening to the Indian weapons: about 2-3 years ago there started to appear obviously new ( and even advertised as such!) Indian swords and daggers of rather decent workmanship. Now, the market is awash in newly-made or renovated ( old blade + new handle)and artficially-aged tulwars, khandas, khanjars etc, with asking prices starting at $1,000.One can still see the incongruities, but the sellers do not seem to care. Many just dropped the designations "old" or "replica" altogether and sell them as is: caveat emptor! It became a real industry there. From the collectors' point of view, this is much worse than the "chinese invasion" of illiterate, pure fantasy, pseudo-russian, pseudo-french, pseudo-chinese etc junk. The indian stuff is much closer to genuine objects, and the artistic/historical/technical level is several orders of magnitude higher. If they get any better ( and they will, I am afraid!), we will have a real problem, akin to a meteoric transition of caucasian weapons from genuine samples to sophisticated and highly professional forgery. Are they sold in India, and are they commanding high prices? Emanuel, you are close to the ground; what is your feel?

7th June 2012, 01:53 PM	#16
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Ariel for the moment my exposure has been only to Hyderabad and Goa and to the experiences of the Indian collectors I've met and it's been very limited. Other forum members understand the situation much better than I do. It seems that the craft is alive and very strong in northern India, particularly in Punjab where the Sikh market is very strong. The spectrum runs from dealers selling old pieces to smiths making good quality weapons and companies making "cheap" replicas. I know of Sikh Gatka practitioners in Toronto periodically making trips back to Punjab to buy equipment. At the same time, based on my experience here in Hyderabad, it seems there isn't that much stuff lying around anymore, at least not here in the South. The old princely armouries like Mysore are actually keeping their arsenals under lock and the antique/junk shops have nothing. I Goa I went to a number of shops/flee markets and such and I asked around, I found nothing. You'd think that what with the place's history and Portuguese presence there would be good stuff left around. Complicating things is that owning, buying/selling edged weapons is illegal unless one has special dispensation/permits. Sikhs are among the few that can legally own and bear sharp weapons. This is understandable, although generally quite tolerant, crowds here are passionate and easily swayed. Marches, parades and festivals can easily turn violent, and no government here wants armed crowds slaughtering each other. All of this I think contributes to a rise in prices, both local and global.