A double handed sword

[francantolin]

Hello dear members,
I wanted to ask your opinion about this huge sword,
I think it is a reproduction of an antique 15th-16th model of two handed sword and I bought it with this description and correct price but , your precious help is needed:

It was sold as a 18th-19th century reproduction
But : the global shape of the blade is too perfect,
So maybe it is just a 20th repro model ?

On another angle:
the blade seems not recent and really well made.
( just a mark/stamp is missing....)

The pommel seems old ( maybe Saxon origin as Merenti illustrated in his post about saxon arms )

the guard and leather, I don't know,
I found look like model said to be late 19th century reproduction and other good ones.....

I'm not specialist at all in this area and every comment is welcomed.
Kind regards

[francantolin]

The dimensions are
163cm/64 inches long for 3,6 kg
A surprising sharp and flexible blade.
Kind regards

[kronckew]

What is the weight? Point of balance (POB) along the blade?


The key word you used was 'flexible'. Victorian/modern repros tend to be overweight overly stiff and non-distal tapered, and have the weight too far forward (POB). Flexible, light weight is a GOOD thing. Grip may have been replaced at some point. Not terrible for it tho. Zweihänders and bearing swords are not in my area, so i'm sure others can get more detailed.

[francantolin]

Thank's a lot Kronckew for you message,

I wrote the total size ans weight :
163cm/64 inches long for 3,6kg/7,94 pounds.

Here some others measures;

-Handle 36cm with pommel but without guard.

-Quillons oversized for battle I think: 48cm long

- Blade 125cm overall , massive unsharpeded for the first 26cm.

Point of balance 20cm on blade after the guard ( cf picture ) I don't know if it's good or not, not easy to see how really landsknecht used it efficiently...

[francantolin]

The other side of the pommel ( same ''line'' ) and other pics...

Must be what is called a presentation-parade sword ( 19th century must be right )
But had these sword sharp-slicers edge ??

Anyway a nice baby toy

Kind regards

[francantolin]

Hello,

Sorry on avance for purists,

I had found the brown rusty patina too homogenuous and ''looking a little fake''
so I had three hours free time and could not resist to sand it with 1000 grain sandpaper /WD40...

For me, really better like that !

Blade shows old black rust spots
( and the end of the tip would be a little longer initially...)

[francantolin]

Last

[NeilUK]

That's quite a good-looking sword you have there. You are right that its size and weight suggest that it is a parade sword as combat two-handers tend to be 150-160cm in length and nearer 2.5kg in weight. Is it genuine late 16th century? It looks to be well made, perhaps with a replacement grip and pommel. Overall my impression from both the crossguard and the blade is that it is a good replica, 19th or even 20th century. If you bought it as a replica then you have done all right.
Neil

[francantolin]

Thank you Neil for your reply,
It was sold as a :
18th/19th replica of a 16th swiss double handed sword.
Low starting price, the opportunity to have one of these and not a cold steel replica...

Usually, it's a serious action house,
So, where are the 18th parts ?

The pommel and blade seemed old/ ok to me
( maybe naìve 18/19th century trusting ...)

During the same session, they were selling two other pieces sold as ''16 century style double handed swords'' without even the mention ''18/19th century'' for one and written '' probably 18/19 th century '' for the other one.
Starting price: 1500 € ... ( weight 3600 kg and +/- same dimensions ...)

The starting price for ''my'' sword was low
Often they make tender bidding system. ( main auction )
swords starting 300€ and ending 4000...
and sometimes unsold...

[francantolin]

Happy to have it after little work...

A last question for specialists please :
Why did bladesmiths make sharp edges for reproductions or parade swords ?
Really, this one is one of the sharpest sword I have...

For the ''old'' pommel , I found this look like on an old sword from a museum in Vienna.

For the blade: I know that few years in soil car turn all rusty but I don't think the blade is 20 century with this black rust patina.

[francantolin]

Last one for the tip/blade structure.
Kind regards

[NeilUK]

OK, I'll go along with the pommel, though that shape is unusual on 2-handers, and the pommel is the element most often replaced when a sword is being restored. As for the sharpness - a good repro has to be sharp otherwise it's not a good repro! I still feel that this is a repro, but a good one, and if I'm wrong then you have an even better bargain.
Neil

[francantolin]

Hello,
I have a question about "replacement" pommels:
I found other with the same shape ( one discussed on an old post ) on old two handed swords.
are they typical of another period that confirm these are later pieces ?
19th century ??

[francantolin]

I'd like to share with you the lines that appeared when I clean it another time and use this time grain 800 then 1000 again.
It is not that deep in the blade but deep enough for being revealed after a second lights sanding.
Strange lamination (?) lines or remains of drawings ?
More presents on one side but de can see them a little on both ( cf pics )
in any case it don't look like a modern damas...

Don't know if it makes it an earlier or later model...

Kind regards

[BBking]

An ''uraltes'' blade for break the silence !...

I hope this one will help.
same ''lines'' and blade shape ( hexagonal section ) on an old italian model of two handed sword
( this one with a stamp )/mark ...)

[Jim McDougall]

The marking appears to be the 'winged lion of St. Mark' as occurs on numbers of weapons from Venice and associated with the armouries of the Doge of Venice of earlier centuries.

[francantolin]

Thank you !!

[shayde78]

Without weighing in one way or the other, I offer some images of examples out of the workshop of Ernst Schmidt of Munich.
The prices listed are in 1920s Deutsch marks.

[francantolin]

Thank you for these pictures ,
It s a really interesting book you have here !!
Some models really look like, especially the pommel ;
( styled on old models ??)

Does anybody know what was the value of 50 Marks on 1920 or what we could buy with this amount ?
These models seems all well made , I can't imagine they were really cheap replicas.

Crisis...
In 1923, they did wallpapers with Deutsch Marks after 2 years of devaluation..
A suitcase full of money for buy a piece of bread...

[shayde78]

I knew there was a note in the book regarding prices, but couldn't locate it yesterday. See the attached picture.

In 1967, the conversion was 1:1 (1920 marks to 1967 dollars)

Per this website ( https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inflation/1967 )
$100 dollars in 1967 is worth $888 in 2022.
So, 100 marks in the book is worth 888 modern dollars.

[francantolin]

Hello all,

Interesting sites about Zweihander swords - Spadone swords and how they were used even on boat attack,
Lepanto battle...

all in italian...

https://zweilawyer.com/2010/02/06/zweihander/

https://zweilawyer.com/2019/08/29/sp...el-xvi-secolo/

https://medievaleggiando.it/lo-spado...-rinascimento/

[NeilUK]

Congratulations and thanks to Francantolin for finding and providing links to these magazine articles, especially as the first and third refer to my own published work on two-handed swords (I don't like the term Zweihander in an English language account because it is German and we have a perfectly good English term and also it is a modern, not a historical, term). The first article refers to a piece I wrote in November 1983, which is now a bit out of date, and uses some of my material. The third directs the reader to my book, originally published in England in 2018, though the reference is to an edition published in India (!!). The second article is most interesting for me as it deals in detail with the two-hander being used on board ship. I do mention this unusual aspect in my book but not in such detail. In case anyone is interested enough to look for my book its title is The Two-Handed Sword, History Design and Use published by Pen and Sword. Over 200 pages, over 100 illustrations most in colour.
Neil Melville

[Dmitry]

I want to warn against taking sandpaper to remove rust. To me, the result looks aggressively over-cleaned. I would try gentler methods first.