A Portugese Question

[A. G. Maisey]

In a recent thread we were talking about a particular type of Indonesian dagger.

I supplied the name by which I knew it:- sangkuh

Then Pak Boedhi mentioned that sangkuh reminded him of sangkur, which means bayonet.

Checks revealed that sangkur and sangkuh mean the same thing.

My memory tells me that "sangue" is Portugese for "blood".

Early European contact in the Indonesian Archipelago was with the Portugese.

Does anybody have access to knowledge of Portugese as spoken in the 16th-17th centuries?

It would not surprise me if we have a "sang---" word in there somewhere that is the root of our sangkuh and sangkur.

Or maybe we`ve just got a corruption of a Portugese word.

[fernando]

That is a very long shot.
Sangue is indeed Portuguese for blood, a Latin based term, and the pattern one ever used. But what made you think Sangkur is a Portuguese influenced term ? Would then the "Kur" or "Kuh" be a malay sufix or the like ? I dont see it fitting on the Portuguese style, even if old or corrupted, i would advance. However checking the Web on the Malay sources it seems like Sangkur, malay for dagger or the like ( bayonet is later galicism ) is a "noun", a propper name for the object, and apparently not derived from a "borrowed
or "composed" term.
Have you some starting track on a different direction ? If so please tell, and i will double check on the Portuguese corruption possibility.
... if nobody more schooled on the subject pops out.
fernando

[A. G. Maisey]

Thanks for your response, Fernando.

Indonesian, which is a form of Malay, is my second language, and I can also handle Javanese passably.

"Sang" is not a root word in either Malay or Javanese. Certainly there are words in both languages that use "sang" as a part of the word; "sang" by itself is an honorific; "kur" and "kuh" are neither suffixes nor prefixes in either language.

Since the Portugese were the first Europeans into the region, it is possible that Javanese first encountered bayonets in the hands of Portugese people.

The Indonesian and Javanese words "sangkur" and "sangkuh" both mean "bayonet".

Sangkur, sangkuh, or any similar word does not occur in Old Javanese, which means it has been added to the Javanese language since about 1600.

In Portugese "sang" is a root word that is used to generate other words.This root word denotes some association with blood.

Bayonets by their very nature draw blood.

Yes, certainly I am drawing a long bow, and at the moment I am not of the opinion that "sangkuh" is Portugese generated , however logic seems to indicate that it could be a possibility, and without checking, we will never know.

If you have access to sources that will provide knowledge of 16th-17th century Portugese language usage, I would appreciate it if you could do a little checking. If you cannot do this fairly easily, don`t worry about it, I`ll go another route.

Incidentally, I`m not looking for corruption of a Portugese word, by Portugese, but rather a word that was in current usage in 16th-17th century Portugese, that could form the basis for a Javanese or Malay corruption.

[Rick]

Possibly we might look at the phonetic pronunciation .
If in the Portuguese pronunciation it is one syllable 'sang' there may be an argument for no relation; if on the other hand if the pronunciation is two syllables then there is good argument for the Portuguese root .

[RSWORD]

Of possibly interesting correlation is that in India there is a type of bayonet referred to as Sangin.

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, this is true.

There is also the sang, a lance; the sanger, a spear; the sangu, a spear. These all from India, and an Indian connection was suggested earlier.

The Iban have a spear called a sangkoh.

However, in Italy one of the names for the cinquedea is "sangdede".

Certainly we cannot rule out some sort of Indian connection, but bearing in mind that this particular weapon is associated with firearms, it falls within a different period of influence within Jawa than those earlier weapons which can clearly be associated with contact from the sub-continent.

This question of the name is still open, and one possibility, although admittedly remote, is a Portugese connection.

[A. G. Maisey]

On the other hand---------

let`s say we`d really like this sangkuh thing to get its name from an Indian source.

Its a bayonet, bayonets come with firearms, direct Indian influence in Jawa was gone long before firearms with bayonets were on the scene.

However-----------

did the Dutch employ Indian mercenaries?

Yes? No?

If so, when?

What were they armed with?

Did those firearms have triangular bayonets?

If not the Dutch, how about the British?

The British had control of Jawa during the first quarter of the 19th century.

Did the British have Indian troops?

Seems reasonable to expect that they might have had.

If so, what were they armed with?

The British really did a number on the Sultan of Jogja. If you like stories of British superiority as a colonial power, you`ll love the story of the taking of Jogja.

But anyway---there they were, right in the heart of Jawa. If they had Indian troops with them ---well, you`ve seen the movies.

And sangkuh is a Javanese word, not Sundanese.

I do not have time right now to do the necessary digging to answer these questions, but a little time spent answering these questions might give a logical confirmation to an Indian source.

I`m sure there`s some fun there for somebody.

[Marc]

Just as an historical note:

Bayonets were first developed at the very end of the 16th c. - beginning of 17th c., and, initially, as hunting implements, with the design known as "plug bayonets. They featured a handle that fitted into the firearm muzzle and a wide, double-edged, spear-like blade. See:



On the other hand, the "socket bayonet" is a late 17th. c. French invention (1670's, quoting from memory), and this is the one equipped (well, with a lot of variations) with what I understand is the kind of blade that originated this debate. For example:




I thought it might be a somewhat relevant information...

[fernando]

Let's see:
1 - XVI-XVII century Portuguese was not so different as a language, but more on the side of orthography, diphthong spellings, using either double letters or accents like the "~", leaving out some of its Galician origins. The more encrypted situation is the intrincate graphic "font" used in the manuscripts and even in early printings. They also used alternative vocables in some cases, but still available in modern dictionaries. I have samples of these situations in various 19 and 20th century editions of the Discoveries period, and also publications on my home town history from the 16th century, with frequent document transcriptions in the original writing manner.
2 - The correct spelling is Sangue, from Latin Sanguis.
( Sang is French, Sangre is Spanish and Sangue is also Italian, but with another pronunciation )
3 - It has two sylabs: San gue. You may either omit the oral sound of the "u", depending on the root word or its several derivations, but you can not abandon its use in writing. By rule, if you want to extend a word ending with consonant "G", with a sufix or a verb time starting with "E", you must use a "U" in between. Both Sangue and this rule were in practise by ( at least ) that period. I spotted this word written in 1594, as "Sãgue". Only the diphthong à alternated to "AN".
4 - Kur and Kuh are not phoneticaly Portuguese . In such a way that is dificult to guess on a Portuguese word that gave out such corruption.
As a sufix or type of extension is even more dificult, as all the available blood (sangue ) word derivations in the dictionaries, be them substantives or adjectives do not refer the direct naming of a weapon specimen, although obviously i see the logic of blood/bleed/bleeder alegories to daggers .
5 - All of the above is no more than an aproach, as it doesn't guarantee that Sangkur is not an actual Portuguese adaptation to Malay or any of the language group.
6 - I ignore the particulars of the weapon in question, but if the subject is about a so called plug bayonet style, introduced in muskets by 1685, when Portuguese influence was already declining, it is hard to beleive that they would stiill bring them over with such an impact that its local reproduction generated a language influenced term to locally name the weapon. I would say that if some weapons exist or existed with Portuguese influenced naming, as certainly in styles, by that side of the world, took place at a prior stage, like 15/16 centuries. Or better said, you do actually have Portuguese influence in Asian and African weapon models ( and probably also names ) being produced until "the other day" ( i have pictures ) but those are a repetition of an influence originated in the earliest period.
But then again, this means nothing, if indeed such corruption existed.
I will keep looking. These themes are nice to get involved with ... if you allow me
fernando

[A. G. Maisey]

Thank you for the information you have already provided, Fernando.

I know nothing of Portugese, but some years ago I had friend who was involved in research of Portugese sonnets from this period of time, and I recall he used word lists that contained words not found in modern Portugese. I thought that perhaps there may have been a Portugese equivalent to Middle English, or even Old English.

My idea on the possiblity of a Portugese root for this bayonet was a fairly long shot, but my approach to any question such as this is to look at everything, no matter how silly or remote a possibility may seem. If we can throw away the Portugese possibility, that is as good a result as being able to confirm a Portugese possibility, because it reduces the possible origins.

Don`t inconvenience yourself with this matter, but if you are able to follow through without a great deal of difficulty, it would be useful for us, I am sure.

[RobT]

Hi All,
Much like the parlor game of telephone, perhaps the key lies neither in Portugese nor in Indonesian but in what the Indonesians thought they heard the Portugese say. For example, the currently correct Beijing is a far cry from the Peking I learned in grade school. To get even closer to home (for those of us that count English as a first language) compare what the Anglo Saxons made of the French they were forced to adopt to the original French. We as blade collectors can listen to khanjar/hanger and saifr/sabre/saber.
Sincerely,
RobT

[fernando]

Hi RobT
Either that or what they call "transvocalization".
These are nearly all the Portuguese terms absorved in Indonesian:
armada - fleet (Port. armada)
beranda - veranda (Port. varanda)
biola - violin (Port. viola)
boneka - doll (Port. boneca)
gereja - church (Port. igreja)
jendela - window (Port. janela)
keju - cheese (Port. queijo)
kemeja - shirt (Port. camisa)
kereta - chariot/car ( Port. carro, carreta )
lemari - closet (cognate with English armoury. Port. armario) Portuguese
meja - table (Port. mesa)
mentega - butter (Port. manteiga)
minggu - Sunday (Port. Domingo)
sepatu - shoe (Port. sapato)
serdadu - army (Port. soldado)
tempo - time (Port. tempo)
terigu - flour (Port. trigo)
solusi - solution ( Port. solução )
topik - topic ( Port. tópico ).
We also have habits left in Java, but not in the subject naming; their "Kronkonk", a still used folk musical style, is partly based on the Portuguese Fado.
I have been ( undeeply ) through the Epics and Cronicles of the Discoveries Period, and am still unable to associate Sangkur with the Portuguese language, even on an ancient basis.
On the other hand ...
Besides the Sangkur Temple in Bali.
In the Sunda Area of Java, there is a mountain (Gunung) called Sangkur.
There is an old Legend in Java connected to this area, where the hero is called Sangkuriang.
The "Logo" of Banjar city includes the Sangkur Mountain.
Meanning the term put to the "bayonet" already existed before this weapon showed up.
How's that for an aproach?
Kind regards
fernando

[A. G. Maisey]

I think that`s better than good , for an approach, and a result.

I thank you most sincerely for the effort you have put into this, Fernando, which is far more than I had intended you should expend.

I think that on the basis of your research we can definitely put any Portugese association to sleep, however, with the other uses of "sangkur" you have identified as existing in Jawa, we still have the question of origin of the name.

Regarding your "kronkonk".

This is "kroncong". In Solo, where I live when I am in Jawa, it is still fairly popular, and there are a number of kroncong groups who give performances regularly.I have known many people over the years who have played this music, my own wife sang in a kroncong band for a while, and many years ago I sat in with a kroncong group and played flute over the period of one of my visits. I am aware of the Portugese roots of this music, but I did not know it was rooted in fado. I am familiar with fado, and I have not noticed a similarity between the two musical forms. What is generally given as the roots of kroncong is "16th century Portugese folk tunes".

Thanks again for the effort you have put into this.

[Henk]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

did the Dutch employ Indian mercenaries?
Did those firearms have triangular bayonets?

If not the Dutch, how about the British?

The British had control of Jawa during the first quarter of the 19th century.

Did the British have Indian troops?

Seems reasonable to expect that they might have had.

If so, what were they armed with?

The British really did a number on the Sultan of Jogja. If you like stories of British superiority as a colonial power, you`ll love the story of the taking of Jogja.

But anyway---there they were, right in the heart of Jawa. If they had Indian troops with them ---well, you`ve seen the movies.

And sangkuh is a Javanese word, not Sundanese.

I do not have time right now to do the necessary digging to answer these questions, but a little time spent answering these questions might give a logical confirmation to an Indian source.

As far as I know the dutch didn't employ Indian mercenaries. The oldest bayonets from 1800 where triangular. I found it in the book "Antieke Vuurwapens by Ir. R.T.W. Kempers" The later bayonets of Hembrug where flat, more the dagger or short sword type.

I think it is more likely that the British did have Indian troops. The Ghurka regiments are an example of that. Maybe that one of the forum members with knowledge of the british army can tell us more?

[fernando]

Wright. Kroncong.
The Fado thing isn't necessarily a tested issue. It was just an introduction to a musical record, in an Indonesian distributor ... plus some other articles and considerations.
The term itself refers the instrument, similar to the "Wawayan" Ukelele, wich in fact is the Portuguese "Cavaquinho". The instrument and melodies were brought to Java by the Portuguese in the 16th century, being practised by the local mixed race Lusophones. The themes and the words were often about sadness and nostalgia ( Saudade, some ex-libris of the Fado ). So i found that introduction convincing. Its development by Eurasians by the late 19th century might have given it another style, though.
fernando

[fernando]

British New Land pattern ( Brown Bess ) bayonet had triangular blade. So did the french model 1777 ( i have an original flintlock musket with it ). Also Belgium and Germany. By the turning of 1700/1800 it was certainly the most popular type, as i notice in my little home resources. Also to consider that countries imported weaponry or model ideas from each other.
This is not to confuse the matter, but just trying to narrow the track.
fernando

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes, as with many things of foriegn origin in Jawa, the original music played by Portugese speaking people there has probably morphed into something more uniquely Javanese in its nature. As has the instrument which gives it its name; the cavaquinho is like a four stringed uke, but the kroncong (instrument) used in kroncong is most often a three stringed instrument, although it can sometimes be four strings, and has a couple of different tunings. They don`t even call it a kroncong these days, it gets called "cuk" and "cak", depending on pitch.
Kroncong is credited with contributing to langgam jawa too, as well as campur sari, and even dangdut, but I think dangdut owes more to the "pop melayu" of thirty or so years ago.

Anyway, regarding the existence of the word "sangkur" prior to existence of bayonets. I`ve looked at the instances given, and checked a couple of references, and my comments follow.


Sangkur Temple in Bali

It seems there are at least a couple of temples in Bali that incorporate the word "sangkur" in their names. There is Pura Pucak Sangkur on Bukit Sangkur (AKA Bukit Resi), there is Pura Hyang Sangkur. There could well be others.

I do not know the meaning of "sangkur" in this context, and have been unable to find out.

Dictionary checks tell me that in Balinese there are two meanings to the word "sangkur", neither of which seems to be appropriate to the name of a temple:-

sangkur:- variation of "sangkut":- to hook onto (Anandakusuma)

sangkur---without a tail (Sutjaja)

then there is the word:- sangku---holy water container (Sutjaja)

which is a root word coming from Old Javanese and Kawi, but this is probably also not suitable, because of the use of "hyang" in one of the pura names; "hyang" is a title for a diety.

It would seem that in Balinese the word "sangkur" has a meaning associated with the Bali-Hindu faith.

This being so, I think we can probably discount the occurrence of the word "sangkur" in Bali, as a possible contributor to its use as meaning bayonet in Indonesian.

Sangkur Mountain in Sunda

I do not have access to a Sundanese dictionary, so have been unable to find the meaning(s) for "sangkur" in Sundanese. However, there is a Sundanese song:- "Sangkur Ratu", which is consistently translated to English as "The King`s Sword". Possibly in Sundanese "sangkur" has the meaning of "sword", which is similar to, but is not, a bayonet.

The City of Banjar has an official history that only begins in 1937. I do not know how long Banjar existed as a small town or village prior to becoming sufficiently important to have its own lambang (logo, coat of arms), but this lambang was designed after Indonesian independence, as the star used in the lambang was drawn from the Pancasila.

Similarly I do not know how long Gunung Sangkur has been known as this.

I do not think that we can presume that Gunung Sangkur was known as Gunung Sangkur since ancient times, and at the present time the meaning of "sangkur" in Sundanese is still not very clear.

Accordingly, I believe we can dismiss the possibility that the occurrence of the word "sangkur" in the Sundanese language has contributed to the use of "sangkur" as the word for "bayonet" in the Indonesian language.

Sangkuriang

The proper name "Sangkuriang" could be a combination of "sangkur"+"iang", but I believe it is more likely to be a combination of "sangku" and "riang", if it is a combination at all."Sangkur" is Indonesian (Bahasa Indonesia), which has only been in general use since after independence in 1946, and perhaps means "sword" in Sundanese, but "iang" would seem to me to not have any meaning. "Sangku" is an older word that occurs in other languages, and "riang" has the meaning of "glad, joyful", but I do not know where this word originates. We really need a Sundanese dictionary, and probably an Old Sundanese dictionary too.

Further Findings

However, I have found that in Sanscrit (Macdonell) the word "sank-u" exists, where it has the meanings of :- "nail, spike, arrow, peg, spear, dart, stake".

In Old Javanese (Zoetmulder) the word "sanku" has several meanings:
bowl, nail, arrow, spear, gnomon,+ a specific type of unknown weapon, possibly a spear+ a specific fixed time.

The meanings relevent to this discussion would be :- arrow & spear, as well as the unknown weapon.

In Modern Javanese the word "sangku" also has several meanings:-
"water bowl, basin" (Robson & Wibisono)

"arrow" (Prawiroatmodjo, Balai Bahasa Yogyakarta)

" metal bowl, tub, copper bowl" (Prawiroatmodjo)
" metal bowl" (Balai Bahasa Yogyakarta)

We already know that in Modern Javanese the word "sangkuh" means "bayonet".

Conclusion

Bearing in mind the way in which a bayonet is used, that is as a fixture to the front of a weapon (firearm) that hurls projectiles , and accordingly could be seen as either an arrow (Old Javanese:- "sangku"), or in its fixed form, as a spear (Old Javanese:- "sangku"), I think that at this point we may reasonably be able to state with some degree of certainty that the Modern Javanese word "sangkuh", meaning "bayonet", comes from the Old Javanese word "sangku", meaning "arrow", and "spear", and that this Old Javanese word "sangku" comes from the Sanscrit "sank-u" meaning, amongst other things, "arrow", and "spear". The Indonesian word "sangkur" probably comes from the Javanese word "sangkuh".

Apologies

I admit that it would have saved a lot of time and a lot of trouble if I had done this work in the first place, instead of throwing wild ideas around, but this sort of thing takes time, in this case about two hours, and time does have a value. I probably should not have commented on this sangkuh in the first place. All my comments ultimately did were to cause work for other people, for which I apologise, and for myself.

[fernando]

Evidently our perspectives are taken from a different angle.
This is work, but one for pleasure ... i wish i have been some usefull.
If you didn't pose the question in the first place, i would have no chance to, before passing the findings to you, achieve all the knowledge out of them, myself. And knowledge allways comes handy.
I also ought to tell you that i completely assimilate your conclusions paragraph. It will still question myself if the Gunung called Sangkur has the configuration of a Spear, or some other kind of alegoric or symbolic relation, like a ( old spear/sword or modern bayonet ) battle having take place at the mountain, or the like ( coincidences are realy rare ).
Eventually i have found that the Portuguese ( and Dutch ) also had some envolvement in this thing of the places names. The Sunda region, for example, became a much larger area than original defined by the locals, because those foreigners "so decided".
Not to speak of Sunda Caldera ( vulcan crater in portuguese/spanish. )
Kind regards
fernando

[fernando]

I would say its the other way round, as i learned long time ago.The four stringed Ukelele is practically like the Cavaquinho, or Braguinha ( from Braga, where is still considerably produced ). I would say that both Uke and Kroncong had the same origin, one more modified by nationals than the other, as you observed. However and considering you are within these things, i tell you i wonder how this instrument was the base for actual fado, considering nowadays the backing instrument is a twelve stringed unique shaped guitar, the cavaquinho having a more generic folk music, and also performing in popular "orchestras" of fifty or more of this (only) instrument. I know fado had different stages and styles, like a just ended version of crying out loud "real dramatic" stories in the streets, selling the story printed panphlet, and expecting people's tips. Either the ( male ) musician or ( female ) singer were often blind people.
But i am diverting ... i better stop now.
regards
fernando

[ariel]

Interesting topic: linguistic of weapons. From what I could understand, there is unlikely to be a direct connection between the Portugese Sangue and Sangkur: just phonetic resemblance.
Many words in many languages have uncanny phonetic resemblance to other, unrelated, words in other languages. It is inevitable, because there are only so many sounds we can construct.
Some of them become a butt of jokes, especially when the translation is "risky". I know several of those (some with unfortunate personal experience) and could quote them, but the good taste of some Forumites is likely to be offended Then there are homophones: words that are spelled differently and have different meaning , but may have similar (or, more precisely, confusing for the non-native speakers) pronounciation. even more dangerous....

[A. G. Maisey]

The uke is a Hawaiian instrument, and ---as I understand it---was introduced to Hawaii by Portugese settlers in the last quarter of the 19th century.

I think we can safely say that both the uke and the cuk came from the same Portugese instrument, only at widely separated points in time.

Yes, I agree that the cavaquinho could well have been the original instrument used in fado.

As for similar sounding words, yes, this can cause a lot of amusement. Even the cuk that they use in kroncong is the same sound as the Australian colloquial for a chicken:- chook.