Dagger!

Hombre · 28th July 2018, 03:39 PM

Should really appreciate opinions about this one....

Total length 25 cm
Blade length 13 cm

Best,
Stefan

BBJW · 28th July 2018, 06:40 PM

Syrian souvenier. Post WW2.- bbjw

kai · 28th July 2018, 08:09 PM

Have a look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24138

Sajen · 28th July 2018, 10:25 PM

Hello Stefan,

do a little bit search with the keyword "Majdali" and you will find a lot of information! Can't say how old your one is and if it is worked for the tourist trade but it is possible. Anyway, it's a nice looking dagger with no missing inlays. Motan would be able to tell you more about it.

Regards,
Detlef

motan · 29th July 2018, 09:49 AM

Hello Hombre,

Indeed a Majdali (or Magdali) dagger from the village of Majdal Shams. There have been several threads where this type is discussed, among others, just a few days ago (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24138). Notice the similarity between yours and BANDOOK's.
Yours is a fine and very typical example, and I am pretty certain that it was made in Majdal Shams, because I have seen very similar ones with the village name engraved in the blade.
There are two general styles in Majdal Shams in this period and this is one of them.
As for the age, it is always difficult. I have seen this type with dates between 1910 an 1940, so, my best guess is in between the wars. Quality deteriorated quickly after WWII, although some good quality daggers were still made.

As for BBJW's remarks, I think that people who know little about a subject should refrain from putting down other people's buys. Surely, for anyone collecting 18th c. Ottoman or similar, ivory gold and wootz, this type of dagger may seem too cheap and late to be serious. Like Koummyas, Shibriyas, Omai khanjars etc., Majdali daggers gradually became tourist souvenirs in later periods and were produced for this market specifically, but tourist pieces do not have the same quality as genuine ones.

Majdali daggers were made from at least the last quarter of the 19th c. and were carried as weapons by locals far beyond their area of production. In the photograph you can see Bedouins carrying Shibriya-like daggers except the second from left, who has a Majdali dagger. It was taken in Jordan before WWI.
In short, a very good find. Daggers of this quality and typical style are becoming rare and expensive too. Don't sell in the next 20 years!
Eytan

Sajen · 29th July 2018, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

As for BBJW's remarks, I think that people who know little about a subject should refrain from putting down other people's buys.

Very well said Eytan!

Hombre · 30th July 2018, 10:51 PM

Thank you so very much for your help. I really appreciate it!!

Best,
Stefan

BANDOOK · 1st August 2018, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motan

Hello Hombre,

Indeed a Majdali (or Magdali) dagger from the village of Majdal Shams. There have been several threads where this type is discussed, among others, just a few days ago (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24138). Notice the similarity between yours and BANDOOK's.
Yours is a fine and very typical example, and I am pretty certain that it was made in Majdal Shams, because I have seen very similar ones with the village name engraved in the blade.
There are two general styles in Majdal Shams in this period and this is one of them.
As for the age, it is always difficult. I have seen this type with dates between 1910 an 1940, so, my best guess is in between the wars. Quality deteriorated quickly after WWII, although some good quality daggers were still made.

As for BBJW's remarks, I think that people who know little about a subject should refrain from putting down other people's buys. Surely, for anyone collecting 18th c. Ottoman or similar, ivory gold and wootz, this type of dagger may seem too cheap and late to be serious. Like Koummyas, Shibriyas, Omai khanjars etc., Majdali daggers gradually became tourist souvenirs in later periods and were produced for this market specifically, but tourist pieces do not have the same quality as genuine ones.

Majdali daggers were made from at least the last quarter of the 19th c. and were carried as weapons by locals far beyond their area of production. In the photograph you can see Bedouins carrying Shibriya-like daggers except the second from left, who has a Majdali dagger. It was taken in Jordan before WWI.
In short, a very good find. Daggers of this quality and typical style are becoming rare and expensive too. Don't sell in the next 20 years!
Eytan

LOVELY PICTURE AND WELL SAID,CHEERS

Helleri · 8th August 2018, 08:21 AM

Do such daggers also fit broadly into the category of Jambiya?

motan · 8th August 2018, 12:34 PM

Hi Helleri,
Yes and no. The question of definitions and names has been discussed many times in this forum and has no clear answers. Do not forget that these are not natural categories like animal families, but they have been invented by collectors.
So, if you mean Jambiya in the sense of Middle Eastern curved dagger - yes.
Locals in Syria call it Khanjar, the generic name for dagger in Arabic.
The term Jambiya is not used outside the Arabian Peninsula and even there, the closest relative of the Yemeni Jambiya is the Omani dagger called Khanjar.
That is my view, and I don't care much about definitions as long as we all understand each other.

Helleri · 8th August 2018, 08:11 PM

Understanding what we are talking about is probably the most important thing. Which is why I like specifics like this. What I'm getting is that Jambiya is not cladistic or basal to the family of daggers. But a lay-term which in field context actually refers to one thing in specific dagger. Is that correct? Also is there a clade for these self-evidently related types (If not it may be helpful for us to think of one)?

motan · 10th August 2018, 10:08 AM

Hi Helleri,
You are right. Unfortunately, I don't have any watertight alternative. Because "groups" of daggers are not actual entities, what you call a specific dagger is, to some degree, a matter of preference (see discussion on Karud in this forum).
In my view, collecting and describing old weapons is a fancy with scientific pretensions (sorry). Even if you find a name for a dagger in old books, you can not assume that the writer knew what he was talking about. Especially older writers used their imagination quite often and copied names from each other without checking. Genuine local names are an important information, but not always known or used by collectors. Therefore, they have their disadvantages too.
I guess that if you say Syrian Jambiya, most collectors will know what you mean and I have nothing against that. I personally would prefer "Middle Eastern curved daggers" as family name because I don't think that many Kurds, Syrians or Berbers will know what Jambiya is.

28th July 2018, 03:39 PM	#1
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	Dagger! Should really appreciate opinions about this one.... Total length 25 cm Blade length 13 cm Best, Stefan Attached Images

29th July 2018, 09:49 AM	#5
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Majdali dagger Hello Hombre, Indeed a Majdali (or Magdali) dagger from the village of Majdal Shams. There have been several threads where this type is discussed, among others, just a few days ago (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24138). Notice the similarity between yours and BANDOOK's. Yours is a fine and very typical example, and I am pretty certain that it was made in Majdal Shams, because I have seen very similar ones with the village name engraved in the blade. There are two general styles in Majdal Shams in this period and this is one of them. As for the age, it is always difficult. I have seen this type with dates between 1910 an 1940, so, my best guess is in between the wars. Quality deteriorated quickly after WWII, although some good quality daggers were still made. As for BBJW's remarks, I think that people who know little about a subject should refrain from putting down other people's buys. Surely, for anyone collecting 18th c. Ottoman or similar, ivory gold and wootz, this type of dagger may seem too cheap and late to be serious. Like Koummyas, Shibriyas, Omai khanjars etc., Majdali daggers gradually became tourist souvenirs in later periods and were produced for this market specifically, but tourist pieces do not have the same quality as genuine ones. Majdali daggers were made from at least the last quarter of the 19th c. and were carried as weapons by locals far beyond their area of production. In the photograph you can see Bedouins carrying Shibriya-like daggers except the second from left, who has a Majdali dagger. It was taken in Jordan before WWI. In short, a very good find. Daggers of this quality and typical style are becoming rare and expensive too. Don't sell in the next 20 years! Eytan Attached Images

28th July 2018, 06:40 PM	#2
BBJW Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Idaho, USA Posts: 228	Syrian souvenier. Post WW2.- bbjw

28th July 2018, 08:09 PM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Have a look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=24138

28th July 2018, 10:25 PM	#4
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello Stefan, do a little bit search with the keyword "Majdali" and you will find a lot of information! Can't say how old your one is and if it is worked for the tourist trade but it is possible. Anyway, it's a nice looking dagger with no missing inlays. Motan would be able to tell you more about it. Regards, Detlef

30th July 2018, 10:51 PM	#7
Hombre Member Join Date: Dec 2015 Posts: 232	Thank you so very much for your help. I really appreciate it!! Best, Stefan

8th August 2018, 08:21 AM	#9
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Do such daggers also fit broadly into the category of Jambiya?

8th August 2018, 12:34 PM	#10
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Helleri, Yes and no. The question of definitions and names has been discussed many times in this forum and has no clear answers. Do not forget that these are not natural categories like animal families, but they have been invented by collectors. So, if you mean Jambiya in the sense of Middle Eastern curved dagger - yes. Locals in Syria call it Khanjar, the generic name for dagger in Arabic. The term Jambiya is not used outside the Arabian Peninsula and even there, the closest relative of the Yemeni Jambiya is the Omani dagger called Khanjar. That is my view, and I don't care much about definitions as long as we all understand each other.

8th August 2018, 08:11 PM	#11
Helleri Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chino, CA. Posts: 219	Understanding what we are talking about is probably the most important thing. Which is why I like specifics like this. What I'm getting is that Jambiya is not cladistic or basal to the family of daggers. But a lay-term which in field context actually refers to one thing in specific dagger. Is that correct? Also is there a clade for these self-evidently related types (If not it may be helpful for us to think of one)?

10th August 2018, 10:08 AM	#12
motan Member Join Date: Apr 2016 Location: Jerusalem Posts: 274	Hi Helleri, You are right. Unfortunately, I don't have any watertight alternative. Because "groups" of daggers are not actual entities, what you call a specific dagger is, to some degree, a matter of preference (see discussion on Karud in this forum). In my view, collecting and describing old weapons is a fancy with scientific pretensions (sorry). Even if you find a name for a dagger in old books, you can not assume that the writer knew what he was talking about. Especially older writers used their imagination quite often and copied names from each other without checking. Genuine local names are an important information, but not always known or used by collectors. Therefore, they have their disadvantages too. I guess that if you say Syrian Jambiya, most collectors will know what you mean and I have nothing against that. I personally would prefer "Middle Eastern curved daggers" as family name because I don't think that many Kurds, Syrians or Berbers will know what Jambiya is.