Prussian / Austrian side arm Help with I.D please.

manokent · 12th January 2011, 11:57 AM

Hello, Ive had this item for quite a while now in the vain hope that I would see another or a similar to help identify it. When I first saw it on a stall I thought that it was a cut down sword. It measures 22 1/2" overall with the blade length of 17 3/4". Stamped on the ricasso Simson & Co Suhl, and a crowned M on the back. The blade is similar in shape to the butcher bayonet only thinner and 2" shorter. Plain wooden grips that don,t appear to have ever been wired or covered and a heavy steel handguard. When you see my pictures you will understand the need for the long description.

I would be grateful for any comments or info regarding this sidearm.

http://s1119.photobucket.com/home/manokent

Thanks in advance,
Mark.

M ELEY · 14th January 2011, 02:42 AM

Very interesting sidearm. Unfortunately, I'm clueless. I was going to suggest a German butcher-blade bayonet/sword hilt 'marriage', but as you stated, but specs aren't right for the butcher blade (which is a good thing, because this must be an original and come like this). In any case, I look forward to what the experts in this area will have to say. From the general styling, I'm assuming a dating of early 20th/WWI era, perhaps?

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2011, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Very interesting sidearm. Unfortunately, I'm clueless. I was going to suggest a German butcher-blade bayonet/sword hilt 'marriage', but as you stated, but specs aren't right for the butcher blade (which is a good thing, because this must be an original and come like this). In any case, I look forward to what the experts in this area will have to say. From the general styling, I'm assuming a dating of early 20th/WWI era, perhaps?

Kudos Mark, for at least offering a response on this anomaly even if, like me, you are a bit baffled by this unusual piece. Its always encouraging when even if we dont really have the answers, we at least show the courtesy of interest to someone who has taken the effort to post something, and offered whatever information they have on the item. Well done Manokent

I think I am with you guys on thinking of the butcher bayonet, and the shape on this blade reminds me a lot of the sawtooth Schmidt & Rubin bayonets (if I recall correctly). In any case, the sabre hilt complete with barred guard of semi basket form is of course atypical for a bayonet. I agree also that this seems to be a hybrid type of 'trench knife' from post WWI. It seems there was instance of refabricating sword hilts with shorter blades for this kind of use in those times near the time of WWII. I know that many of the surplus 'Patton' army swords M1913 sometime around then were cut down to these kind of knives presumably for trench type warfare. It seemed odd to see these huge sheet steel bowl guards on these completely incongruent cut down blades.
While not much help Im afraid, I just wanted to add those observations.

All the best,
Jim

asomotif · 18th January 2011, 01:31 AM

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Hotspur · 24th January 2011, 03:44 PM

I am not finding the source quickly but Prussian/Bavarian/Austrian Alpen/Mountain artillery swords. The shorties with the plainer P and reverse P guards more regularly regarded as police swords. One or another of the blankwaffen sites but I am not navigating well this morning.

Cheers

GC

broadaxe · 27th January 2011, 10:53 AM

I have seen this before, supposed to be a semi-official creation, kind of a late boarding cutlass, circa WWI. I also handled a similar item, a yataghan bayonet blade mated to an Austrian foot soldier sword hilt. Alas, I cannot find the reference.

Hotspur · 27th January 2011, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by broadaxe

I have seen this before, supposed to be a semi-official creation, kind of a late boarding cutlass, circa WWI. I also handled a similar item, a yataghan bayonet blade mated to an Austrian foot soldier sword hilt. Alas, I cannot find the reference.

Like this one?

Alpen Korp for the one in this thread (I do believe)

Cheers

GC

manokent · 31st January 2011, 11:03 AM

Thanks to you all for your constructive replies and advice. Unfortunately I can't see the attached image in Hotspurs last post. My initial instinct was that this was a police or similar officials sidearm. I am certain that this weapon was not a hastily thrown together 'marriage' as although of plain and cumbersome appearance it is well constructed. Surprisingly it also feels well balanced and comfortable in the hand. I would appreciate it if the Alpen Korps image could be sent again either here or to me directly. Finally I realize that this WW1 item is outside of the dateline for this forum but I honestly thought that this was of pre 1900's manufacture, my apologies!
Many thanks again!
Mark.

broadaxe · 31st January 2011, 02:27 PM

Hurrah - I found the reference

Frederick Stephens' Fighting Knives, pp. 12-13. I quote: "German Naval Marine Artillery sidearm, pattern 1911. A scarce example of an official modification..."
The letter M probably stands for Marine, check for OS on the ricasso, they stand for Ost See (= East Sea, the Baltic). The original scabbard bear some further naval marks.

manokent · 2nd February 2011, 11:44 AM

Thanks Broadaxe, Well remembered! I would never have considered a naval connection for this!! I am delighted to have nailed this one having owned it for over 6 months

. Unfortunately this came without a scabbard which may well have helped. No sign of OS on the ricasso though. I am going to order a copy of Frederick Stephens book today!
Many thanks again to all!

Mark.

12th January 2011, 11:57 AM	#1
manokent Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11	Prussian / Austrian side arm Help with I.D please. Hello, Ive had this item for quite a while now in the vain hope that I would see another or a similar to help identify it. When I first saw it on a stall I thought that it was a cut down sword. It measures 22 1/2" overall with the blade length of 17 3/4". Stamped on the ricasso Simson & Co Suhl, and a crowned M on the back. The blade is similar in shape to the butcher bayonet only thinner and 2" shorter. Plain wooden grips that don,t appear to have ever been wired or covered and a heavy steel handguard. When you see my pictures you will understand the need for the long description. I would be grateful for any comments or info regarding this sidearm. http://s1119.photobucket.com/home/manokent Thanks in advance, Mark.

18th January 2011, 01:31 AM	#4
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	PICTURE FOR LATER REFERENCE . Attached Images

14th January 2011, 02:42 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Very interesting sidearm. Unfortunately, I'm clueless. I was going to suggest a German butcher-blade bayonet/sword hilt 'marriage', but as you stated, but specs aren't right for the butcher blade (which is a good thing, because this must be an original and come like this). In any case, I look forward to what the experts in this area will have to say. From the general styling, I'm assuming a dating of early 20th/WWI era, perhaps?

24th January 2011, 03:44 PM	#5
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	I am not finding the source quickly but Prussian/Bavarian/Austrian Alpen/Mountain artillery swords. The shorties with the plainer P and reverse P guards more regularly regarded as police swords. One or another of the blankwaffen sites but I am not navigating well this morning. Cheers GC

27th January 2011, 10:53 AM	#6
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I have seen this before, supposed to be a semi-official creation, kind of a late boarding cutlass, circa WWI. I also handled a similar item, a yataghan bayonet blade mated to an Austrian foot soldier sword hilt. Alas, I cannot find the reference.

31st January 2011, 11:03 AM	#8
manokent Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11	Thanks to you all for your constructive replies and advice. Unfortunately I can't see the attached image in Hotspurs last post. My initial instinct was that this was a police or similar officials sidearm. I am certain that this weapon was not a hastily thrown together 'marriage' as although of plain and cumbersome appearance it is well constructed. Surprisingly it also feels well balanced and comfortable in the hand. I would appreciate it if the Alpen Korps image could be sent again either here or to me directly. Finally I realize that this WW1 item is outside of the dateline for this forum but I honestly thought that this was of pre 1900's manufacture, my apologies! Many thanks again! Mark.

31st January 2011, 02:27 PM	#9
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	Hurrah - I found the reference Frederick Stephens' Fighting Knives, pp. 12-13. I quote: "German Naval Marine Artillery sidearm, pattern 1911. A scarce example of an official modification..." The letter M probably stands for Marine, check for OS on the ricasso, they stand for Ost See (= East Sea, the Baltic). The original scabbard bear some further naval marks.

2nd February 2011, 11:44 AM	#10
manokent Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 11	Thanks Broadaxe, Well remembered! I would never have considered a naval connection for this!! I am delighted to have nailed this one having owned it for over 6 months . Unfortunately this came without a scabbard which may well have helped. No sign of OS on the ricasso though. I am going to order a copy of Frederick Stephens book today! Many thanks again to all! Mark.