DIFFERENT LEVELS OF COLLECTING

VANDOO · 20th October 2006, 03:33 AM

WE ALL COLLECT IN OUR OWN DIFFERENT WAYS
SOME ONLY COLLECT ONE THING ALL THEIR LIVES AND SPARE NO EXPENSE IN GETTING ALL THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE IN ANY LANGUAGE AND GET IT TRANSLATED. THEY ONLY BUY THE VERY BEST ITEMS WITH EXCELLENT PROVENENCE AVAILABLE REGARDLESS OF EXPENSE. THEY VISIT THE MUSEUMS WITH THE VERY BEST COLLECTIONS AND ARRANGE TO SEE THEIR BEST EXAMPLES. IF THEY PUBLISH A BOOK ON ALL THE THINGS THEY HAVE LEARNED IN A LIFETIME WE ALL PROFIT IF NOT IT IS OFTEN ALL LOST WHEN THEY PASS AWAY.

OTHERS START THE SAME WAY AS ABOVE BUT MAY LOSE INTREST IN THE FIELD THEY ARE COLLECTING IN AND CHANGE TO SOMETHING ELSE. THIS IS OFTEN DUE TO RUNNING OUT OF NEW KNOWLEGE AND THE LACK OF AVAILABILITY OF ITEMS TO COLLECT THAT ARE UP TO THEIR STANDARDS. THEY THEN SELL OUT THAT TYPE OF ITEM AND START COLLECTING IN A NEW FIELD. BOTH OF THESE TYPES OF COLLECTORS ARE VERY SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR COLLECTING AND MUST HAVE POSITIVE PROOF OF ANY INFORMATION OR KNOWLEGE BEFORE THEY WILL ACCEPT IT. THEY ARE USUALLY DRIVEN TO BE AT THE TOP OF THEIR FIELD AND VERY COMPETIVIE AND MOSTLY ONLY RESPECT OTHER COLLECTORS SUCH AS THEMSELVES. THEY OFTEN ARE SO DEDICATED TO THEIR OWN COLLECTING AND INTERESTS THAT THEY JUST DON'T HAVE TIME OR A DESIRE TO SHARE THE KNOWLEGE THEY HAVE WORKED VERY HARD AND SPENT A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY AQUIRING. IN A WAY THEY ARE RIGHT AS GIVING THEIR INFORMATION TO A COMPETING COLLECTOR JUST MAKES THEIR COLLECTING MORE DIFFICULT AND SHAREING IT OPENLY WITH LESS DEDICATED TYPES OF COLLECTORS SEEMS A WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT. SO MANY TIMES THE KNOWLEGE IS LOST WITH THE COLLECTOR AND THEN ANOTHER COLLECTOR OF THAT TYPE WILL HAVE TO GO FIND IT ALL OVER AGAIN FOR HIMSELF. IF IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN DOWN SOMEWHERE HE MAY GET TO THE SAME POINT BEFORE HE LOSES INTEREST OR PASSES AWAY. THE COLLECTORS OF THIS TYPE WHO LIVED DURING THE OLD DAYS OF HEAD HUNTING AND PERHAPS TRAVELED TO THE ACTUAL LOCATION AND AQUIRED ITEMS AND KNOWLEGE FROM THE SOURCE AND SPOKE THE LANGUAGE WERE VERY FEW AND MUCH OF THEIR KNOWLEGE WAS LOST FOREVER WHEN THEY PASSED AWAY AND BARRING THE USE OF A TIME MACHINE IS LOST FOREVER.

THE MAN WITH UNLIMITED TIME AND FUNDS AND THE DRIVE AND INTEREST TO COLLECT IN A FIELD WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OVER THE MAN WITH LIMITED TIME AND FUNDS. HE CAN MAKE LOTS OF CONTACTS AND BUY FROM SOTHBYS, CHRISTIES, AND THE MOST EXPENSIVE GALLERYS. THE DEALERS HE CONTACTS WILL LOOK FOR THE TYPE OF HIGH DOLLAR ITEMS HE WANTS AND CONTACT HIM WHEN THEY FIND THEM. THIS TYPE OF COLLECTOR IS AT THE TOP OF THE COLLECTING FOOD CHAIN

THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS BELOW THIS SOME WHO STILL COLLECT ONLY ONE TYPE OF ITEM AND ARE AS DEDICATED BUT JUST DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR MONEY TO MAKE THE TOP OF THE LINE CONNECTIONS OR COMPETE PRICE WISE WITH THE TOP COLLECTORS.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE THE INTREST BUT A LACK OF FUNDS AND JUST HOPE TO OCCASIONALLY GET LUCKY AT A FLEA MARKET,GUN SHOW OR GARAGE SALE. THE GROUP I FALL INTO IS FAIRLY LOW ON THE FOOD CHAIN PERHAPS A JACKAL VERSES THE LION AT THE TOP. I AM HONEST AND HAPPY TO COLLECT ANY CRUMB THAT FALLS THRU OR BONE OR TASTY CHOP I CAN SNEAK IN AND GET AWAY WITH.

MY TYPE OF COLLECTING IS WHAT I AM INTERESTED IN AND LIKE, WHICH IS MOST EVERYTHING I CAN AFFORD IN BOOKS OR EDGED WEAPONS. I HAVE BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH OVER THE YEARS TO FIND A FEW VERY GOOD ITEMS AT GUN SHOWS ,FLEA MARKETS AND GARAGE SALES. THE ITEMS I HAVE COLLECTED OVER THE YEARS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LOW END AT THE TIME. I NEVER COLLECTED JAPANESE, GERMAN,OR PERSIAN WHEN I STARTED COLLECTING AS THERE WAS A LOT OF INTREST AND COMPETICIAN AND I DID NOT HAVE THE MONEY. THE LOW END AT THE TIME WAS PHILIPPINE,OCEANIC,AFRICAN,MEXICO AND SOUTH AMERICAN SO THAT WAS THE DIRECTION I TOOK. I STILL REGRET THAT I DIDN'T SAVE UP AND BUY HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS ESPECIALLY FROM THE OLD ARMS CATALOGS OF THE 1960'S. I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT FROM CHRISTIES ,SOUTHBYS OR THE BIG GALLERYS AND UNLESS I FALL INTO A LOT OF MONEY NEVER WILL BE ABLE TO. I WOULD IF I COULD BUT I AM JUST NOT IN THAT ECONIMIC CLASS AND HAVE TOO MANY OTHER INTERESTS TO BE DEDICATED ENOUGH TO BE THE TYPE OF COLLECTOR AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN EVEN IF I WAS VERY WEALTHY

THERE IS A LOT THAT CAN BE LEARNED FROM A COLLECTION SUCH AS MINE AS IT INCLUDES A FEW GOOD EXAMPLES FROM MANY DIFFERENT CULTURES IN PARTS OF THE WORLD. IT ALSO INCLUDES COMMON EXAMPLES OF VARYING QUALITY AND AGE FROM EVERWHERE TOURIST OR OTHERWISE. CERTIANLY VERY LITTLE TO INTEREST THE TOP OF THE LINE COLLECTOR OR ARMS MUSEUM BUT EXAMPLES FROM VARIOUS ETHINOGRAPHIC CULTURES. TO ME A SWORD MADE IN NIAS BY THE LOCALS IS A NIAS SWORD REGARDLESS OF WHEN IT IS MADE. I WOULD CERTIANLY PREFER TO HAVE THE VERY BEST OLD EXAMPLE WITH FULL PROVENANCE OF OWNERSHIP BY THE HIGHEST CHIEF IN NIAS HISTORY BUT WILL HAVE TO SETTLE FOR A CURRENT EXAMPLE FROM NIAS WITH CARVED WOOD TEETH ON THE FETISH BALL. SO AT LEAST I HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF THE TYPE NOT GOOD QUALITY ,AGE, MATERIALS OR PROVENANCE BUT THE BEST I COULD DO. PERHAPS SOME DAY I WILL FIND A GOOD OLD EXAMPLE AT A GARAGE SALE UNTILL THAT HAPPY DAY I WILL JUST HAVE TO BE CONTENT TO HAVE MY EXAMPLE AND LOOK AT PICTURES OF THE REAL OLD ONES.

WE ALL SHARE A COMMON INTEREST BUT HAVE DIFFERENT DEGREES OF DEDICATION, KNOWLEGE AND FINANCES. WE ALSO ALL HAVE THE ITEMS WE CONSIDER THE MOST DESIRABLE AND GO IN OUR SEPARATE DIRECTIONS AS FAR AS COLLECTING. I ESPECIALLY LIKE ITEMS I HAVE ACTUALLY FOUND WHILE TRAVELING TO FORIGN COUNTRYS AS ADVENTURE AND LOCAL ALWAYS ADDS TO THE BUYING OF ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS. END OF TOME

Rich · 20th October 2006, 04:08 AM

Good commentary. I have one rule for collecting (I collect all sorts of
sharp pointy things :-) - that is: collect what you like, but like what
you collect! I've always found researching and knowing something of
the history, culture, etc always enhances my enjoyment of the piece.

Rich (aka old puukkophile)

The Japanese Sword Index
http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

Robert · 20th October 2006, 05:04 AM

Vandoo, Excellent post. I fall into the lowest end of the food chain myself. I will never have the finances to travel to the countries whose weapons I love so much and have often had to make a choice of spending more than I can in reality afford to buy something that I really like or waiting for something more reasonable to come my way. Most of the time I depend on other forum members to help me to identify my purchases and to my thinking this is not an unacceptable practice. Being of limited mobility and living in the country with little but the Internet to help me in my research makes thing difficult to say the least. I've seen swords on this forum that I would love to have but at the same time would not trade my humble collection for them. All I can say is if I can offer any help or information to anyone at any time I am more than glad to do so. The one thing that I do not and never will understand is the withholding of knowledge for ANY reason. My best wishes to all in their pursuit of knowledge, collecting and happiness.

Robert

Tim Simmons · 20th October 2006, 08:30 AM

Also living off an oily rag. One can get obsessed with hunting for things. Now I often feel it is not worth having unless I can find it below the general price, simple or grand. But I did live in Scotland. None of those jokes- How do you cure a Scotsman of sea sickness? - put a penny in his mouth. Scots are very generous people.

Spunjer · 20th October 2006, 03:40 PM

Quote:

One can get obsessed with hunting for things...

i think you nailed this right on the head, tim. i must admit that when i first started collecting, i was going thru phases:

phase 1- i see a sword on ebay

pahse 2- i bid on it, so subconsciously or conciously, i feel like it's mine already

phase 3- i think about it for days, even counting down when the bid is gonna be up.

phase 4- in the final minutes, if i'm home, the F5 button (refresh) in my pc becomes my friend

phase 6- i win the sword. it's a rush!

phase 7- now it's the waiting game until i get it. this is the longest week ever.

phase 8- mailman comes. it's christmas! i literally rip the package. i dote on it for a day or two.

phase 9- then i wrap it up in a towel and store it.

phase 10- back to ebay.

Flavio · 20th October 2006, 03:55 PM

Hey Spunjer, it's the same for me!!!! Maybe this is a true pathology

Ann Feuerbach · 20th October 2006, 04:48 PM

Nice post. I am another category...I borrow priceless objects from museums and collectors, learn about every millimeter of the object, I know the craftsmen, the materials, the stages it went through, sometimes I loving need to clean it and do things to protect it for the future, spend hundreds of hours in an intimate setting, I know more about it than my friends and relatives (sad to say)...alas then I have to give them back! Heart breaking when you know something so well and you never know if you will see your "old friends" again.

Lew · 20th October 2006, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

i think you nailed this right on the head, tim. i must admit that when i first started collecting, i was going thru phases:

phase 1- i see a sword on ebay

pahse 2- i bid on it, so subconsciously or conciously, i feel like it's mine already

phase 3- i think about it for days, even counting down when the bid is gonna be up.

phase 4- in the final minutes, if i'm home, the F5 button (refresh) in my pc becomes my friend

phase 6- i win the sword. it's a rush!

phase 7- now it's the waiting game until i get it. this is the longest week ever.

phase 8- mailman comes. it's christmas! i literally rip the package. i dote on it for a day or two.

phase 9- then i wrap it up in a towel and store it.

phase 10- back to ebay.

Spunjer

I am a lot like you

SOMEBODY HELP ME PLEASE!

I also like Tim try and find the bargains but now and then I will spring for the big buck item

If you guys ever visit you will be able to peg my house easily
it's the one with all the swords bulging out the front window

. So many weapons to collect and no more space to store them

Lew

Spunjer · 20th October 2006, 06:07 PM

nothing wrong with being like me, bro.

you don't don't need any help. you're alright, lol.

all joking aside, tho, collecting these swords is the fun part part; knowing that they're home is the satisfying part...

spiral · 20th October 2006, 06:09 PM

Well I try for top catogary collection, within a given sector., { 90% of my collection are kukri} with as many at budget prices as possoible, but occasional real push the boat out jobs, then on live on rice for a month.

But its worked. Research & knowledge can sometimes overcome wealth, within particular feilds, except when the sellers & dealers realy knows exactly what there selling{fairly rare with kukri.} or at big auction houses where the rich nearly always win, whether they know exactly what an item is or not.

When I was training as a counselor , i came across a paper , where the mostly male collecting insticnt was described as a perversion of our original daily or weekly stone age hunting instinct, where one goes out to look for ones prey, finds it, tracks it, move in for the kill, then takes it home to both show are capabilities & ability to provide as well as providing for our family/tribe.

For me, I can see & feel that in my collecting as well.

Seeing what some of you say about the stages , seems like whover wrote that paper , & peggid it exactly.

Wish I could recall who wrote it.

Spiral

Dajak · 20th October 2006, 06:18 PM

Hi Vandoo the best things I did always get not from ebay not from an gallery
but from old time collectors

There is no way that it is a big advantage if you have more money

KNOWLEDGE AND THE WILL TO SEARCH FLEAMARKET ETC is in most ways more important than money

The knowledge to examing a piece on authentic age is very important
also connections so studying is an advantage just that you don t pay to much money for an piece the quality on ebay at the moment is bad on indonesian weapons so they put on not so old stuff and make this standard
a very bad thing but happend also with african stuff objects etc.

I did try sometimes to buy an object offering a lot off money but the owner would not sell it
and more in for an trade so I always buy old nice things for a possible trade.

The most Tribal Art dealers are the last possibility to buy something in my
opinion but there always a few you can buy stuff for an normal price
from the whole world I just need one hand to count them

It is also like this philipine weapons you find them the most in the US

But Indonesian you find in the Netherlands

North Borneo and Indian stuff in England

Regards Ben

PS Japanese stuff for me also to expensive

katana · 20th October 2006, 08:22 PM

Well Tim, Lew, Spunjer and Flavio, we all seem to have a very similar methodology when seeking new acquisitions ...... but it does tend to be addictive.........should we get psychological help

mross · 20th October 2006, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Well Tim, Lew, Spunjer and Flavio, we all seem to have a very similar methodology when seeking new acquisitions ...... but it does tend to be addictive.........should we get psychological help

YES!! I'll start.
Hello, my name is Mike I am a steelaholic. I am weak and in need of help. It's been one week since my last fix. And temptation is tugging at my soul again. Oh this steel addiction!! Whew, that feels better thank you all, now where's that ebay window?

katana · 20th October 2006, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

YES!! I'll start.
Hello, my name is Mike I am a steelaholic. I am weak and in need of help. It's been one week since my last fix. And temptation is tugging at my soul again. Oh this steel addiction!! Whew, that feels better thank you all, now where's that ebay window?

Well Mike......iron is good for the blood....so perhaps steel is good for the soul

Lew · 20th October 2006, 10:34 PM

Lew admits that it was probably when he was younger, when he searched for steel and prized it above gold and jewels

not2sharp · 20th October 2006, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Well Tim, Lew, Spunjer and Flavio, we all seem to have a very similar methodology when seeking new acquisitions ...... but it does tend to be addictive.........should we get psychological help

Is it an addiction to ask why, or is it just an abundance of curiosity? Collectors tend to dig into whatever happens to interest them and then preserve it for posterity. Perhaps it an illness; the desire to live in a profoundly more complexed world then most of the population. We turn our backs to prepackaged answers and seek instead to pry odd pieces from among an untidy heap to create our own sense of order. There is an common understanding between collectors; I may not understand why you have chosen to collect what you do, but I know the joy of collecting.

n2s

not2sharp · 20th October 2006, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Lew admits that it was probably when he was younger, when he searched for steel and prized it above gold and jewels

http://www.barbariankeep.com/sounds/hand.wav

Lew · 20th October 2006, 11:57 PM

COOL!

Lew

Bill M · 21st October 2006, 12:15 AM

Great post Vandoo,

I collect because I am tied to a business that has prevented me from traveling for many years.

At first, collecting was to bring things to me from exotic lands that I have never seen.

Then it was to develop relationships with people all over the world that I might go see when I can travel.

Then it was a fascination with different cultures, religions, art, languages and the artifacts that were precious to these people.

I hold a finely forged weapon and think about his birth. a prospective owner visits a craftsman. The owner is quizzed and measured. Often a sword or keris was created for a certain purpose -- for a certain person. .

Once the measurements and questions are done, the creation begins.

Hammered in a blazing forge. Sparks flying. An apprentice pumping the bellows. The panday sweating, his hands guided by his love for the steel. Shaping it. Folding the metal back. Working on auspicious days. Fasting and praying before he picks up his hammer. Certain ingredients in the steel, Secret chants and potions.

In many societies he is feared, but respected. You don’t want to invite him to parties – but you better! He works a strange alchemy with steel and spirit.

The forging done, the metal is ready for filing and finishing. How many other blanks were discarded as not being good enough? (Sold on eBay later?)

Then the dress is carefully made. The steel of the blade and the scabbard and hilt come together. each part carefully made so that the pieces do not become jealous of each other. And they fit together perfectly.

The final work completed with sacrifices and incense in cooler place than the fiery forge. The spirit is invited in and the final touches put in place.

That process happened to many of the pieces I have collected.

I feel a strange thrill sometimes when I hold a fine weapon and know that people loved it for sometimes centuries, passed down through generations. To many families a sword was by far their most valuable possession. Oiled and cleaned by candle or firelight.

I have pieces that were possibly owned by Sultans or other very wealthy people. I have simple battle scarred veterans that fought hard. I have pieces that were used by professionals, plain, simple, deadly.

And I wonder why they let it go. Did they fall on hard times? Did a younger generation see little value in it? Did they begin to realize that guns might be better at killing?

Which of these weapons killed people? These weapons that I am holding? Did the person who loved this weapon get killed and an enemy take their weapon home with them?

Now I am still curious about all the above, and I am now more curious about the weapons themselves. many of these pieces were made with spiritual intent. Some seem to have spirits living in them. Sometimes the spirits are sad and lonely, or dormant.

Sometimes I hold a vacant house. Beautiful, but dead. and as a landlord, I wonder how I might get a new tenant who will be happy there? A new tenant who will help me as I provide shelter and food for them?

A Jen?

A conduit to ancestors?

Protection for me and my family?

A key to the invisible kingdom?

A source or a focal point of power?

A symbol that I can never understand, but still feel that connection to "something beyond?” And maybe that is enough.

And I wonder what will happen to these pieces when I move on? Sometimes I feel they should go home to their original countries. But what does that mean? A museum that may not really take care of them? A barn of a museum with no humidity or temperature control, so that they rust or the wood split?

I would like my pieces to go to people who will love and respect them as I do. I am now learning who those people might be.

And I am having the time of my life!

katana · 21st October 2006, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spiral

where the mostly male collecting insticnt was described as a perversion of our original daily or weekly stone age hunting instinct, where one goes out to look for ones prey, finds it, tracks it, move in for the kill, then takes it home to both show are capabilities & ability to provide as well as providing for our family/tribe.

For me, I can see & feel that in my collecting as well.

Spiral

BANG ON , Spiral......thats it in a nut-shell

TVV · 21st October 2006, 05:47 AM

I wish I could come up with a nice theory to justify my collecting addiction, but I think it is just that I never grew up. As my wife points out, when boys get older, the only thing that changes is the price of their toys.
I am in the bottom of the collecting food chain, and I think this is where I will stay regardless of how wealthy I get. I like almost all ethnographic edged weapons and I find it hard to concentrate even on one geographic area, let alone on one type. I have a main area of interest, but for every weapon from this area I acquire, I tend to get two that have nothing to do with it. So generally, I am extremely undisciplinned at my collecting, and whenever I see something well priced on eBay or at an antique shop in Bulgaria (when I am there) I tend to go for it...
And so far I have been unable to figure out upgrading either, as I find it extremely difficult to part with items in my possession, even in cases in which I know they are junk. Unworthy of display, I keep touristy weapons stored somewhere, but cannot force myself to sell them, because of the memories associated with most of them, especially since these touristy weapons got me started on collecting ethnographic arms in the first place. Interestingly enough it only works this way with ethnographic items, as plenty of bayonets passed through my hands and I never developped an affection for any of them.
All these weaknesses mean that I will forever stay at the bottom of the collecting food chain, but I do not have a problem with this - I like it this way.

joshualayne · 21st October 2006, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

I wish I could come up with a nice theory to justify my collecting addiction, but I think it is just that I never grew up. As my wife points out, when boys get older, the only thing that changes is the price of their toys.
I am in the bottom of the collecting food chain, and I think this is where I will stay regardless of how wealthy I get. I like almost all ethnographic edged weapons and I find it hard to concentrate even on one geographic area, let alone on one type.

You know, right up to the liking almost all ethnographic part, I would swear you were reading my mind...

I have too many interests - music, woodworking, computers, etc... so any weapon purchase is always competing against not only other weapons, but other hobbies as well (I blame my vanishing for two years on this).

Also, while I have respect for many sword (and other weapons) making and using traditions, I find there must be something more to draw me in - I have particular aesthetic interests: I love the form of Dhas - they are visually very well balanced, I love most chinese and almost all japanese weapons and some middle-eastern (turkish: yataghan for example), and I am sure my tastes will change as I collect more.

It is funny though - I love the blade of pesh khabz, but I find the handles jarring and too squat somehow and I can say this about a number of styles in that there is an element that I love, but something inconsistent with the overall piece - I know, I know.... they weren't all made to be looked at, but as that is what I will be doing with them, I see them as (primarily at least) art.

I doubt I am the only one out there that collects based on aesthetics foremost (but I think I am the first one to say it in this thread

)

My wife has made the same comment about the cost of my toys I believe....

best,
j.

Spunjer · 21st October 2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

And I wonder what will happen to these pieces when I move on? Sometimes I feel they should go home ...

I would like my pieces to go to people who will love and respect them as I do.

ironic...

20th October 2006, 03:33 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	DIFFERENT LEVELS OF COLLECTING WE ALL COLLECT IN OUR OWN DIFFERENT WAYS SOME ONLY COLLECT ONE THING ALL THEIR LIVES AND SPARE NO EXPENSE IN GETTING ALL THE INFORMATION AVAILABLE IN ANY LANGUAGE AND GET IT TRANSLATED. THEY ONLY BUY THE VERY BEST ITEMS WITH EXCELLENT PROVENENCE AVAILABLE REGARDLESS OF EXPENSE. THEY VISIT THE MUSEUMS WITH THE VERY BEST COLLECTIONS AND ARRANGE TO SEE THEIR BEST EXAMPLES. IF THEY PUBLISH A BOOK ON ALL THE THINGS THEY HAVE LEARNED IN A LIFETIME WE ALL PROFIT IF NOT IT IS OFTEN ALL LOST WHEN THEY PASS AWAY. OTHERS START THE SAME WAY AS ABOVE BUT MAY LOSE INTREST IN THE FIELD THEY ARE COLLECTING IN AND CHANGE TO SOMETHING ELSE. THIS IS OFTEN DUE TO RUNNING OUT OF NEW KNOWLEGE AND THE LACK OF AVAILABILITY OF ITEMS TO COLLECT THAT ARE UP TO THEIR STANDARDS. THEY THEN SELL OUT THAT TYPE OF ITEM AND START COLLECTING IN A NEW FIELD. BOTH OF THESE TYPES OF COLLECTORS ARE VERY SERIOUS ABOUT THEIR COLLECTING AND MUST HAVE POSITIVE PROOF OF ANY INFORMATION OR KNOWLEGE BEFORE THEY WILL ACCEPT IT. THEY ARE USUALLY DRIVEN TO BE AT THE TOP OF THEIR FIELD AND VERY COMPETIVIE AND MOSTLY ONLY RESPECT OTHER COLLECTORS SUCH AS THEMSELVES. THEY OFTEN ARE SO DEDICATED TO THEIR OWN COLLECTING AND INTERESTS THAT THEY JUST DON'T HAVE TIME OR A DESIRE TO SHARE THE KNOWLEGE THEY HAVE WORKED VERY HARD AND SPENT A LOT OF TIME AND MONEY AQUIRING. IN A WAY THEY ARE RIGHT AS GIVING THEIR INFORMATION TO A COMPETING COLLECTOR JUST MAKES THEIR COLLECTING MORE DIFFICULT AND SHAREING IT OPENLY WITH LESS DEDICATED TYPES OF COLLECTORS SEEMS A WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT. SO MANY TIMES THE KNOWLEGE IS LOST WITH THE COLLECTOR AND THEN ANOTHER COLLECTOR OF THAT TYPE WILL HAVE TO GO FIND IT ALL OVER AGAIN FOR HIMSELF. IF IT HAS BEEN WRITTEN DOWN SOMEWHERE HE MAY GET TO THE SAME POINT BEFORE HE LOSES INTEREST OR PASSES AWAY. THE COLLECTORS OF THIS TYPE WHO LIVED DURING THE OLD DAYS OF HEAD HUNTING AND PERHAPS TRAVELED TO THE ACTUAL LOCATION AND AQUIRED ITEMS AND KNOWLEGE FROM THE SOURCE AND SPOKE THE LANGUAGE WERE VERY FEW AND MUCH OF THEIR KNOWLEGE WAS LOST FOREVER WHEN THEY PASSED AWAY AND BARRING THE USE OF A TIME MACHINE IS LOST FOREVER. THE MAN WITH UNLIMITED TIME AND FUNDS AND THE DRIVE AND INTEREST TO COLLECT IN A FIELD WILL ALWAYS HAVE THE ADVANTAGE OVER THE MAN WITH LIMITED TIME AND FUNDS. HE CAN MAKE LOTS OF CONTACTS AND BUY FROM SOTHBYS, CHRISTIES, AND THE MOST EXPENSIVE GALLERYS. THE DEALERS HE CONTACTS WILL LOOK FOR THE TYPE OF HIGH DOLLAR ITEMS HE WANTS AND CONTACT HIM WHEN THEY FIND THEM. THIS TYPE OF COLLECTOR IS AT THE TOP OF THE COLLECTING FOOD CHAIN THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT LEVELS BELOW THIS SOME WHO STILL COLLECT ONLY ONE TYPE OF ITEM AND ARE AS DEDICATED BUT JUST DON'T HAVE THE TIME OR MONEY TO MAKE THE TOP OF THE LINE CONNECTIONS OR COMPETE PRICE WISE WITH THE TOP COLLECTORS. THERE ARE THOSE WHO HAVE THE INTREST BUT A LACK OF FUNDS AND JUST HOPE TO OCCASIONALLY GET LUCKY AT A FLEA MARKET,GUN SHOW OR GARAGE SALE. THE GROUP I FALL INTO IS FAIRLY LOW ON THE FOOD CHAIN PERHAPS A JACKAL VERSES THE LION AT THE TOP. I AM HONEST AND HAPPY TO COLLECT ANY CRUMB THAT FALLS THRU OR BONE OR TASTY CHOP I CAN SNEAK IN AND GET AWAY WITH. MY TYPE OF COLLECTING IS WHAT I AM INTERESTED IN AND LIKE, WHICH IS MOST EVERYTHING I CAN AFFORD IN BOOKS OR EDGED WEAPONS. I HAVE BEEN LUCKY ENOUGH OVER THE YEARS TO FIND A FEW VERY GOOD ITEMS AT GUN SHOWS ,FLEA MARKETS AND GARAGE SALES. THE ITEMS I HAVE COLLECTED OVER THE YEARS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LOW END AT THE TIME. I NEVER COLLECTED JAPANESE, GERMAN,OR PERSIAN WHEN I STARTED COLLECTING AS THERE WAS A LOT OF INTREST AND COMPETICIAN AND I DID NOT HAVE THE MONEY. THE LOW END AT THE TIME WAS PHILIPPINE,OCEANIC,AFRICAN,MEXICO AND SOUTH AMERICAN SO THAT WAS THE DIRECTION I TOOK. I STILL REGRET THAT I DIDN'T SAVE UP AND BUY HIGHER QUALITY ITEMS ESPECIALLY FROM THE OLD ARMS CATALOGS OF THE 1960'S. I HAVE NEVER BOUGHT FROM CHRISTIES ,SOUTHBYS OR THE BIG GALLERYS AND UNLESS I FALL INTO A LOT OF MONEY NEVER WILL BE ABLE TO. I WOULD IF I COULD BUT I AM JUST NOT IN THAT ECONIMIC CLASS AND HAVE TOO MANY OTHER INTERESTS TO BE DEDICATED ENOUGH TO BE THE TYPE OF COLLECTOR AT THE TOP OF THE FOOD CHAIN EVEN IF I WAS VERY WEALTHY THERE IS A LOT THAT CAN BE LEARNED FROM A COLLECTION SUCH AS MINE AS IT INCLUDES A FEW GOOD EXAMPLES FROM MANY DIFFERENT CULTURES IN PARTS OF THE WORLD. IT ALSO INCLUDES COMMON EXAMPLES OF VARYING QUALITY AND AGE FROM EVERWHERE TOURIST OR OTHERWISE. CERTIANLY VERY LITTLE TO INTEREST THE TOP OF THE LINE COLLECTOR OR ARMS MUSEUM BUT EXAMPLES FROM VARIOUS ETHINOGRAPHIC CULTURES. TO ME A SWORD MADE IN NIAS BY THE LOCALS IS A NIAS SWORD REGARDLESS OF WHEN IT IS MADE. I WOULD CERTIANLY PREFER TO HAVE THE VERY BEST OLD EXAMPLE WITH FULL PROVENANCE OF OWNERSHIP BY THE HIGHEST CHIEF IN NIAS HISTORY BUT WILL HAVE TO SETTLE FOR A CURRENT EXAMPLE FROM NIAS WITH CARVED WOOD TEETH ON THE FETISH BALL. SO AT LEAST I HAVE AN EXAMPLE OF THE TYPE NOT GOOD QUALITY ,AGE, MATERIALS OR PROVENANCE BUT THE BEST I COULD DO. PERHAPS SOME DAY I WILL FIND A GOOD OLD EXAMPLE AT A GARAGE SALE UNTILL THAT HAPPY DAY I WILL JUST HAVE TO BE CONTENT TO HAVE MY EXAMPLE AND LOOK AT PICTURES OF THE REAL OLD ONES. WE ALL SHARE A COMMON INTEREST BUT HAVE DIFFERENT DEGREES OF DEDICATION, KNOWLEGE AND FINANCES. WE ALSO ALL HAVE THE ITEMS WE CONSIDER THE MOST DESIRABLE AND GO IN OUR SEPARATE DIRECTIONS AS FAR AS COLLECTING. I ESPECIALLY LIKE ITEMS I HAVE ACTUALLY FOUND WHILE TRAVELING TO FORIGN COUNTRYS AS ADVENTURE AND LOCAL ALWAYS ADDS TO THE BUYING OF ETHINOGRAPHIC ITEMS. END OF TOME

20th October 2006, 04:08 AM	#2
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Good commentary. I have one rule for collecting (I collect all sorts of sharp pointy things :-) - that is: collect what you like, but like what you collect! I've always found researching and knowing something of the history, culture, etc always enhances my enjoyment of the piece. Rich (aka old puukkophile) The Japanese Sword Index http://www.geocities.com/alchemyst/nihonto.htm

20th October 2006, 05:04 AM	#3
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Vandoo, Excellent post. I fall into the lowest end of the food chain myself. I will never have the finances to travel to the countries whose weapons I love so much and have often had to make a choice of spending more than I can in reality afford to buy something that I really like or waiting for something more reasonable to come my way. Most of the time I depend on other forum members to help me to identify my purchases and to my thinking this is not an unacceptable practice. Being of limited mobility and living in the country with little but the Internet to help me in my research makes thing difficult to say the least. I've seen swords on this forum that I would love to have but at the same time would not trade my humble collection for them. All I can say is if I can offer any help or information to anyone at any time I am more than glad to do so. The one thing that I do not and never will understand is the withholding of knowledge for ANY reason. My best wishes to all in their pursuit of knowledge, collecting and happiness. Robert

20th October 2006, 08:30 AM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Also living off an oily rag. One can get obsessed with hunting for things. Now I often feel it is not worth having unless I can find it below the general price, simple or grand. But I did live in Scotland. None of those jokes- How do you cure a Scotsman of sea sickness? - put a penny in his mouth. Scots are very generous people.

20th October 2006, 03:55 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	Hey Spunjer, it's the same for me!!!! Maybe this is a true pathology

20th October 2006, 04:48 PM	#7
Ann Feuerbach Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 133	Nice post. I am another category...I borrow priceless objects from museums and collectors, learn about every millimeter of the object, I know the craftsmen, the materials, the stages it went through, sometimes I loving need to clean it and do things to protect it for the future, spend hundreds of hours in an intimate setting, I know more about it than my friends and relatives (sad to say)...alas then I have to give them back! Heart breaking when you know something so well and you never know if you will see your "old friends" again.

20th October 2006, 06:07 PM	#9
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	nothing wrong with being like me, bro. you don't don't need any help. you're alright, lol. all joking aside, tho, collecting these swords is the fun part part; knowing that they're home is the satisfying part...

20th October 2006, 06:09 PM	#10
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Well I try for top catogary collection, within a given sector., { 90% of my collection are kukri} with as many at budget prices as possoible, but occasional real push the boat out jobs, then on live on rice for a month. But its worked. Research & knowledge can sometimes overcome wealth, within particular feilds, except when the sellers & dealers realy knows exactly what there selling{fairly rare with kukri.} or at big auction houses where the rich nearly always win, whether they know exactly what an item is or not. When I was training as a counselor , i came across a paper , where the mostly male collecting insticnt was described as a perversion of our original daily or weekly stone age hunting instinct, where one goes out to look for ones prey, finds it, tracks it, move in for the kill, then takes it home to both show are capabilities & ability to provide as well as providing for our family/tribe. For me, I can see & feel that in my collecting as well. Seeing what some of you say about the stages , seems like whover wrote that paper , & peggid it exactly. Wish I could recall who wrote it. Spiral

20th October 2006, 06:18 PM	#11
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Vandoo the best things I did always get not from ebay not from an gallery but from old time collectors There is no way that it is a big advantage if you have more money KNOWLEDGE AND THE WILL TO SEARCH FLEAMARKET ETC is in most ways more important than money The knowledge to examing a piece on authentic age is very important also connections so studying is an advantage just that you don t pay to much money for an piece the quality on ebay at the moment is bad on indonesian weapons so they put on not so old stuff and make this standard a very bad thing but happend also with african stuff objects etc. I did try sometimes to buy an object offering a lot off money but the owner would not sell it and more in for an trade so I always buy old nice things for a possible trade. The most Tribal Art dealers are the last possibility to buy something in my opinion but there always a few you can buy stuff for an normal price from the whole world I just need one hand to count them It is also like this philipine weapons you find them the most in the US But Indonesian you find in the Netherlands North Borneo and Indian stuff in England Regards Ben PS Japanese stuff for me also to expensive

20th October 2006, 08:22 PM	#12
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Well Tim, Lew, Spunjer and Flavio, we all seem to have a very similar methodology when seeking new acquisitions ...... but it does tend to be addictive.........should we get psychological help

20th October 2006, 10:34 PM	#15
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Lew admits that it was probably when he was younger, when he searched for steel and prized it above gold and jewels

20th October 2006, 11:57 PM	#18
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	COOL! Lew

21st October 2006, 12:15 AM	#19
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Great post Vandoo, I collect because I am tied to a business that has prevented me from traveling for many years. At first, collecting was to bring things to me from exotic lands that I have never seen. Then it was to develop relationships with people all over the world that I might go see when I can travel. Then it was a fascination with different cultures, religions, art, languages and the artifacts that were precious to these people. I hold a finely forged weapon and think about his birth. a prospective owner visits a craftsman. The owner is quizzed and measured. Often a sword or keris was created for a certain purpose -- for a certain person. . Once the measurements and questions are done, the creation begins. Hammered in a blazing forge. Sparks flying. An apprentice pumping the bellows. The panday sweating, his hands guided by his love for the steel. Shaping it. Folding the metal back. Working on auspicious days. Fasting and praying before he picks up his hammer. Certain ingredients in the steel, Secret chants and potions. In many societies he is feared, but respected. You don’t want to invite him to parties – but you better! He works a strange alchemy with steel and spirit. The forging done, the metal is ready for filing and finishing. How many other blanks were discarded as not being good enough? (Sold on eBay later?) Then the dress is carefully made. The steel of the blade and the scabbard and hilt come together. each part carefully made so that the pieces do not become jealous of each other. And they fit together perfectly. The final work completed with sacrifices and incense in cooler place than the fiery forge. The spirit is invited in and the final touches put in place. That process happened to many of the pieces I have collected. I feel a strange thrill sometimes when I hold a fine weapon and know that people loved it for sometimes centuries, passed down through generations. To many families a sword was by far their most valuable possession. Oiled and cleaned by candle or firelight. I have pieces that were possibly owned by Sultans or other very wealthy people. I have simple battle scarred veterans that fought hard. I have pieces that were used by professionals, plain, simple, deadly. And I wonder why they let it go. Did they fall on hard times? Did a younger generation see little value in it? Did they begin to realize that guns might be better at killing? Which of these weapons killed people? These weapons that I am holding? Did the person who loved this weapon get killed and an enemy take their weapon home with them? Now I am still curious about all the above, and I am now more curious about the weapons themselves. many of these pieces were made with spiritual intent. Some seem to have spirits living in them. Sometimes the spirits are sad and lonely, or dormant. Sometimes I hold a vacant house. Beautiful, but dead. and as a landlord, I wonder how I might get a new tenant who will be happy there? A new tenant who will help me as I provide shelter and food for them? A Jen? A conduit to ancestors? Protection for me and my family? A key to the invisible kingdom? A source or a focal point of power? A symbol that I can never understand, but still feel that connection to "something beyond?” And maybe that is enough. And I wonder what will happen to these pieces when I move on? Sometimes I feel they should go home to their original countries. But what does that mean? A museum that may not really take care of them? A barn of a museum with no humidity or temperature control, so that they rust or the wood split? I would like my pieces to go to people who will love and respect them as I do. I am now learning who those people might be. And I am having the time of my life!

21st October 2006, 05:47 AM	#21
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	I wish I could come up with a nice theory to justify my collecting addiction, but I think it is just that I never grew up. As my wife points out, when boys get older, the only thing that changes is the price of their toys. I am in the bottom of the collecting food chain, and I think this is where I will stay regardless of how wealthy I get. I like almost all ethnographic edged weapons and I find it hard to concentrate even on one geographic area, let alone on one type. I have a main area of interest, but for every weapon from this area I acquire, I tend to get two that have nothing to do with it. So generally, I am extremely undisciplinned at my collecting, and whenever I see something well priced on eBay or at an antique shop in Bulgaria (when I am there) I tend to go for it... And so far I have been unable to figure out upgrading either, as I find it extremely difficult to part with items in my possession, even in cases in which I know they are junk. Unworthy of display, I keep touristy weapons stored somewhere, but cannot force myself to sell them, because of the memories associated with most of them, especially since these touristy weapons got me started on collecting ethnographic arms in the first place. Interestingly enough it only works this way with ethnographic items, as plenty of bayonets passed through my hands and I never developped an affection for any of them. All these weaknesses mean that I will forever stay at the bottom of the collecting food chain, but I do not have a problem with this - I like it this way.