If one would be made for you how would it be?

[Jussi M.]

Greetings,

lets just assume that you were to have only one keris for the rest of your life and that youd have an opportunity to have one made for you by a true master.

Within the boundaries of good taste and finances that you could actually handle how would your "perfect" keris be like?

Just your personal view based on what ever you feel is important to you.

Thanks,

J

[ferrylaki]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

Greetings,

lets just assume that you were to have only one keris for the rest of your life and that youd have an opportunity to have one made for you by a true master.

Within the boundaries of good taste and finances that you could actually handle how would your "perfect" keris be like?

Just your personal view based on what ever you feel is important to you.

Thanks,

J

Well, its very difficult to describe what I really want.
there should be a picture or a hand drawing to mention what I really want my keris would be.
I've made some specified ricikan for my "imaginary" keris would be:
1. straight keris
2. pamor = wengkon ( just near the edge )
3. kembang kacang
4. jalu melet
5. lambe gajah
6. greneng
7. sogokan

as the style, I prefer the Surakarta PBX style.(Surakarta is my hometown)
its rather big, strong, firm and thin.
I'm still looking for the right picture.
is there somebody out there having an example of the keris I describe above?
Anybody?

Well how about you?

FERRYLAKI

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm really surprised that this thread has not been flooded with posts. To my way of thinking, this is one of the most interesting topics that has been opened in some time.

My approach to this would be a bit different to Ferry's.

I would want a keris that was the best piece of keris art that I could obtain.

Like Ferry, I would want a straight keris, because I believe that traditional keris artistic concepts are better expressed in a straight keris than in a waved keris.

I would not want nagas or singa barongs or any other carving, and I would not want kinatah work.

Most importantly, I would want the best work available, so to begin with, I would try to decide who was the best current maker.

I would also want sole authorship, which means that I would want the bakalan and calon forged by the same man who did the bench work.

With all those parameters in place, my choice of maker would be pretty limited.

I would then talk to that maker, explain what I wanted and ask him what pamor he considered was his best, and what dhapur he was most comfortable working with.

I would ask him to name his price, which I would then double---on the understanding that if what he produced was in any way less than perfect, I had the right to reject it, and he would do the job again---and again----and again, until I was satisfied with the result.

I would want the surface aged very lightly, just sufficient to enhance the pamor, and I would probably do the warangan myself.

I have not mentioned any of the details that I would request that the maker used in his approach, and I have not mentioned dress.

Does anybody else have any ideas on what might go to make his dream keris?

[BluErf]

But there is always a gap between what I imagine and what the keris maker can do... And then there is the issue of how 'inspired' the maker can be. He could execute a keris (cld be an established type) in such a way that no one before him could have thought of doing it in that way. It could be a very subtle and nuanced difference, but in the realm of great kerises, that subtleness makes the whole world of difference.

So without being able to completely share my imagined keris with the maker, and without knowing what he could be creatively capable of, I don't know how to commission my dream keris effectively...

Although there are more beautiful kerises out there, I kind of already have my 'dream keris' with me. It's the one that I would not hesitate to choose to save in a "there's-a-fire-and-you-can-only-save-one-keris" scenario. Sometimes, the bird of paradise is already in our own backyard.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

Well how about you?

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Does anybody else have any ideas on what might go to make his dream keris?

My dream keris would be straight, relatively wide and robust. Something like Surakarta high on steroids so to speak

I would prefer the sculpting to be very three dimensional with highly organic, dare I even say out of this world flow on how the lines come together as a whole greater than the material, design and earthly work that made it. I would prefer it to have a rather simple but complex on closer look pamor. Sinister and stealthy for a lack of better words. Warangan should be without pendok and I´d like it to follow the clean, organic and sinister feel of the blade. No frills, no decoration, just pure, unrestricted lines that flow onto a cohesive whole. A sort of Old School Jawanese with a flair of Alien air.

Cold
Simple
Sinister
Organic

Something like that.

I would probably use adjectives like the above to describe the feel of what I personally like and let The Maker - granted he knows what he does - draw his own conclusion on what the outcome should be like. This would undoubtedly mean a sufficient amount of dialogue and interaction. This would undoubtedly proceed to a material possession with more and deeper meaning than solely what meets the eye. Not just a keris. But truly "my" keris.

Thanks,

J

[gwirya]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I would also want sole authorship, which means that I would want the bakalan and calon forged by the same man who did the bench work.

With all those parameters in place, my choice of maker would be pretty limited.

Dear Alan, a little bit of topic, could you name some of the empu/pandai/artis that fits into this particular parameter? I am thinking of having one personal keris.
thx

[Marcokeris]

My dream keris is a blade that, every times i see this blade, the keris can tell to my soul something news and different from the latest time. My dream keris would be like a open Door toward another site....a place where i can feel the the breathing of the artist that made the blade .

[Kiai Carita]

I would want a Carita with 11 luks.

It would be kelengan without pamor made in the Majapahit style. I would want it to be slender and gracefull and light but very sharp and very strong. The sharpness and the strength of the blade would be very important to me, and I would want to test it.

I would want a sturdy pesi and defined ricikan, and it woud be dressed in a bold timoho pattern or aromatic sandalwood with the whole scabbard one peice of wood, in a Yogya gayaman style.

The pendok would be suasa with a discreet Suryoningalogo coat of arms on the back.

After that, I would want two more kerises. One would be made by Pak Alan and the other would be made by Lemmy the UK Mpu who also posts here. I would treasure the work of these two current Mpus.

If Pak Alan could obtain it, I would want him to make the keris from scratch using iron and steel from the First Fleet that landed in Botany Bay and make it a tangguh Ngostrali. Any dhapur or pamor would do but I prefer simple rather than fancy.

For the keris made by Lemmythesmith, I would be very happy to keep the patrem he showed us a while back. If not then any other keris he feels happy to make using meteorite would be splendid.

[A. G. Maisey]

Probably couldn't get any first fleet ferric material. If I did, and if I used it, they would probably put me jail for 25 to life.

Could do meteoritic material. I welded meteorite into a bakalan a number of times back in the early 1990's---this was pure meteorite, Canyon Diablo. It was not meteorite held together with iron to enable welding.Some of these meteorite bakalan were handed to a Solo maker and used as pamor in keris. The result is shown.

The whole problem with me making a keris for anybody is that I work with traditional tools and not electric tools. Shortest time it has ever taken me to make a keris was 16 days. Longest time was 49 days. These are 8 and 10 hour days. On Australian wage rates that makes my work completely out of the market.

Maybe we could make it a tangguh Khangghuru ?

[tunggulametung]

A broad Cirebon keris, 40 cm long, 13 flowing luks, featured with all well defined kembang kacang, jenggot, jalen, two lambe gajah, jalu memet, bungkul, pejetan, pair of sogokan, tikel alis, sraweyan, ada-ada, tungkakan, greneng robyong, "God-given" wos wutah pamor, solid blade, ivory raksasa hilt with swasa selut and mendak, dressed in swasa long gone Cirebon sendang walikat sheath.

P.S. swasa is upgradable to gold or downgradable to silver dipending on the world economic conditions

[lemmythesmith]

Hi all, I'm currently making my dream keris Balinese 19.75" long, dapur Pasopati, wos wutah/ngulit semangka pamor, 12 meteorites, 30 irons (Roman to 1900) 4" wide at the gongo (third attempt gongo! ) 5/8" thick.

Kiai-many thanks for the vote of confidence, but I wouldn't call myself an mpu (or a master), just a crazy Englishman who likes making keris.

Sneak preview below.... It no longer has this gongo, made a right mess of it!!

[Jussi M.]

Lemmy,

I think you need to start taking orders soon!

J

[Michel]

I am lucky ! my dream keris exist :
A kris Nagakresna,XIX century, Surakarta.
Page 161 of court art of Indonesia
A beauty !

Michel

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

....
The whole problem with me making a keris for anybody is that I work with traditional tools and not electric tools. Shortest time it has ever taken me to make a keris was 16 days. Longest time was 49 days. These are 8 and 10 hour days. On Australian wage rates that makes my work completely out of the market.

Maybe we could make it a tangguh Khangghuru ?

Tangguh Khangguru dhapur mlumpat might be appropriate Pak Alan. Maybe it would have a winking kangaroo head instead of a tlale gajah.

As this is only fantasy, I would have no problem in paying you in Australian dollars. I would count 60 working days and pay you $500 - $1000 a day, so the blade would cost between $30.000 to $60.000 - not much at all for a fantasy keris, don't you think? You get contemporary paintings that fetch more than that at Christy's - so why not a keris?

Thanks for uploading the photos of the meteorite keris, very nice!

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by lemmythesmith

...
Kiai-many thanks for the vote of confidence, but I wouldn't call myself an mpu (or a master), just a crazy Englishman who likes making keris.
....

Lemmy, no real Mpu would call himself or herself an Mpu. So by saying that you would not call yourself an Mpu, it shows that you might be one!

I really like what I have seen of your work, and as this a fantasy thread, I would like to offer you a fantasy dowry for your work as well.

Seeing that the pound is falling daily at the moment, would you prefer to be paid in dinars?

[A. G. Maisey]

Yeah---well---we can all dream, can't we?

Kiai, have ever noticed that khanghuru is exactly the right pawakan for a keris?

Assymetric it is, and more or less triangular into the bargain. You could make an entire blade that more or less resembled a khanghuru.

Michel that dream keris of yours might already exist, but Jussi's question was related to getting a new keris made, so if that Surakarta keris is your idea of something good, you would need to find somebody to copy. Sorry---you cannot have the one that already exists.

[Jussi M.]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jussi's question was related to getting a new keris made

That it precisely what I meant. - No existing kerises are allowed. On a perfect world I´d like to acquire something like a fusion of sorts between these pictured on Mr. Maiseys website.

I have no idea what such beast would be like but these kerises, especially the two on the middle, rock my boat hard so to speak




Thanks,

J

[Rick]

Ahh, Mas Budi's Kebo !!

One of my favorites .

[lemmythesmith]

Seeing that the pound is falling daily at the moment, would you prefer to be paid in dinars?

Kiai, I'll be happy to accept your fantasy dowry in pounds-of gold

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Michel

I am lucky ! my dream keris exist :
A kris Nagakresna,XIX century, Surakarta.
Page 161 of court art of Indonesia
A beauty !

Michel

I totally agree with you.
This is the best keris, sarong, hit i never seen
For my taste an absolute masterpiece .

[David]

Well Michel and Marco (and others presenting already existing keris), as has been pointed out, the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?

[Michel]

Well David and Alan,
I understand your point of view, but do not share it.
You remind us :the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?
In dreams "miracle occures"!
Should I think of modifying the beautiful kris I have shown ? I think that before I could make a valid description of what should be done to this kris, I would have to study all the elements of the keris (blade, grip, sheath, etc) and be fully embedded in the kris culture and this would take the better part of 25 years of study. Some of you guys are, may be, at that level of knowledge and understanding of the kris culture ( Alan ?) but I am very far from it.
But there I have a piece I can look at, its virtual in a sense, but it does not require that I draw it, forge it, file it, etc. I can just look at it and admire the workmanship of the artist(s) who made it. I do not think one can cumulate the most beautifull parts of several krisses to make one perfect assembled kriss. It would not be balanced.
So please let me dream of my beautiful keris !
Michel

[Kiai Carita]

Originally Posted by Jussi M.

The contrast and the brightness of the pamor in these kerises is better than any keris or photograph of a kerises that I have ever seen. Are they really this bright in real life? What causes the absolute contrast is it the material of the pamor or is it superior marangi process?

Pak Alan, I think the time has come to make a dhapur kanghuru. What would be an appropriate new pamor?

Lemmy, pounds of gold are coming your way

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to everyone,

Bram

[A. G. Maisey]

Bram, I took all these pics, and all but one of those keris are still in my possession.

Yes, the pamor is pretty close to what you see in the photos. Much of the result of what you see is in the technique I use to take the photos; I use natural south light, I am particular with the quality of the light and if a pic is important I wait until that quality is right. I use a tripod and remote release, very slow shutter and a small aperture. Sometimes I forget the small aperture and use the mid range aperture that the lens performs best at. Everything I use is simple stuff that anybody can do.

The blades have been correctly stained. Pak Parman did his own, Pak Pauzan's and Mas Budi's were done by a commercial stainer in Solo, I did the blade that I made. The stain job that I did took me several attempts and several days before I was happy with it.The material in all the blades is iron and pure nickel.

So what you see is a due to a combination of care and correctness.

As for the appropriate pamor for a dhuwung Australie, it could be no other than pamor ron kulahbah (once a jolly swagman sat by a billabong,under the shade of a kulahbah tree)

And a very Selamat Natal to you too Bram.

[Kiai Carita]

What would pamor kulahbah look like? I know the swagman song but have never seen a kulahbah tree - what part would make the pamor design?

I knew an Australian wood craftsman once who made bowls and things like that and often he used aromatic woods with nice patterns - so probably a lot of native Australian woods would make nice warangka too.

With an Australian dress, the dhuwung Australie would be real tru blue, right?

[A. G. Maisey]

Fixed that Bram.

Pamor Ron Kulahbah.

This here's a kulahbah tree---or coolabah, depending on which school you went to.

http://www.anbg.gov.au/cpbr/cd-keys/...microtheca.htm

Yep, jejeran out of ringed gidgee, warangka from red cedar, it'd be a real fair dinkum, ridgy didge bit of gear.

[David]

Originally Posted by Michel

Well David and Alan,
I understand your point of view, but do not share it.
You remind us :the question is what keris would you create from scratch. This can never be your dream keris because , barring a miracle, it can never be yours. I would like to believe that someday ALL our dreams might come true. So if you had a copy of it made is there not one thing you would change to somehow fit your own persona?
In dreams "miracle occures"!
Should I think of modifying the beautiful kris I have shown ? I think that before I could make a valid description of what should be done to this kris, I would have to study all the elements of the keris (blade, grip, sheath, etc) and be fully embedded in the kris culture and this would take the better part of 25 years of study. Some of you guys are, may be, at that level of knowledge and understanding of the kris culture ( Alan ?) but I am very far from it.
But there I have a piece I can look at, its virtual in a sense, but it does not require that I draw it, forge it, file it, etc. I can just look at it and admire the workmanship of the artist(s) who made it. I do not think one can cumulate the most beautifull parts of several krisses to make one perfect assembled kriss. It would not be balanced.
So please let me dream of my beautiful keris !
Michel

Forgive me Michel, i am not trying to take away your "dream keris". I am merely pointing out that that was not the point of this particular exercise. So what you are saying then is that if you could have a keris made from scratch that it would look exactly like this one right down to the same dhapur, pamor and dress? That's OK of course. But what about details that you possibly don't know about this pre-existing masterpiece? What kind of pamor material would you use? Meteorite? Where would you source the iron from? An intensive knowledge of keris culture isn't really necessary for this exercise because the keris could be made to suit your own needs and culture. Alan, for instance, who obviously has a better understanding of keris culture than most, is putting forth a dhapur, pamor and dress that is both culturally and environmentally based on things Australian.
Michel, when the keris you have posted was made for it's original owner choices of pamor and dhapur were made based on the status, needs and personality of that original owner. I believe what Jussi was trying to establish was how we would go about making those choices for ourselves and possibly why. It's not really a matter of accumulating the most beautiful parts of all the best keris we have seen. It's about what you feel would be appropriate for you.

[Michel]

Thank you David,
To have taken so much time and effort to explain the rules of this little game.
Now, if one cannot abide to the rules, one should not play at all !
So I should not have played ! Why ?
Because there is no way I could play by the rules, of figuring out a keris that would be my dream keris. I am not an artist who can create from nothing an object, which will be an art piece. I need example, something I can base my ideas on and develop from there with sets of rules. If I do not know the rules, I will be in trouble developing anything.
Mastering the rules of the keris, is something that Alan and may be you, have done but not me. Alan having learned and worked many years under the guidance of Empu Suparman Supowijaya is probably capable of describing a keris that would suite him. He has done it in his December 13 description but with all respect for Alan description, I cannot see his keris, I cannot visualise his description. Ferrylaki did the same, I cannot see his dream keris.
Kiai Carita did the same, quite precisely, but still I cannot see what he dreams of.
Do I care about the origin of the nickel, if it is meteorite or from a bicycle ? Absolutely not !
The pamor, yes I do love the example I have shown, neat, precise, discreet, not flashy but elegant.
Doest it mean, that this example is “THE Kris” for me ? No, it is the one that I have seen, that pleases me most.
Does it mean it is the one that would best fit my Personality? I do not care, this aspect of the keris culture goes far beyond my understanding and ability to admit a reciprocal influence between the keris and the personality.
I summary Davis, a far too long message for a game I should not have done !
If you can play by these rules, fine with me, but I am afraid I will not be able to know your dream keris! But keep dreaming !
Regards
Michel

[A. G. Maisey]

Michel, as far as I'm concerned you played the game OK.

You like the keris you posted a pic of.

OK, you just give this pic to somebody who understands a bit more than you do, and tell them to get it duplicated. This can be done. For you, its a visual thing, and the rest of it doesn't matter. Fair enough.

For me, this game is just that:- a game.

Bram and I have been making exchanges that are completely specious. We both know we are talking nonsense and joking along the way---at least I am, and I am sure Bram has spent enough time in contact with western culture---maybe Aussie, maybe British---to understand the way this brand of humour works.

My 13th December post was serious, but I was then wearing my "serious" hat.

If I were to wear my "dream-maker " hat I might want a keris made with isi and tuah that could guarantee me a 25 million dollar Lotto win---or perhaps the throne of a small kingdom.

Yep---this would be my sort of keris:- handsome is as handsome does.

One of my great faults is that I cannot stay too serious for too long, particularly with a subject as light-hearted as the one that is the basis for this thread.

[Rick]

Very well put Michel .
I have refrained from commenting for many of these very same reasons .