Petits Montmorency with Fleur de Lys guard.

Norman McCormick · 22nd November 2017, 09:03 PM

Hi,
A French hanger type sword known as a Petits Montmorency. The blade is 74cms long and 3.2cms wide with the overall sword being 88cms with a blade of the Montmorency type hence the name. The tip is slightly bent but gentle heat and a vice may solve that. These types were in use pre-revolution by the Army, National Guard and the Navy although the Navy versions generally sported an anchor on the guard. The Fleur de Lys guard was in use from 1788 to 1792. This sword was probably used by an Infantry officer or perhaps a well heeled N.C.O. in the National Guard. As usual your thoughts and comments anticipated.
My thanks to the Musee d l'Armee for the above information.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 22nd November 2017, 09:36 PM

Thank you so much for posting this Norman!!! I have never seen one of these hilts, whose openwork design reflects the styles of the period on British spadroons in the general design. This is timed nicely with the studies being discussed on the fluer de lis concurrently.

The Montmorency type blade was also most popular with some English sword types in these times.

M ELEY · 23rd November 2017, 01:30 AM

Excellent acquisition, Norman! Like Jim, I had never seen nor been aware of this pattern sword! Of note are the two oval cut-out designs to the guard base, seen on the French officer's pattern naval sword with the swivel guard, like this one I used to own-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19372

Norman McCormick · 23rd November 2017, 11:54 PM

Jim, Mark,
Thanks as always for your views and input. I too was unaware of these Petits Montmorencys until I acquired this example. An internet search of Petits Montmorency sabre will bring up many examples, some plain and businesslike but also expensive blue and gilt types. The guards are many and varied with some pointing towards the particular arm of service in which the owner served e.g. anchor, grenade etc. The 'slotted type' cross guard and blade profile appears to be a common factor with the 'basket' and occasionally the grip as varying factors.
My Regards,
Norman.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th November 2017, 07:30 PM

Excellent thread Norman and very much in step with the current run of FDL designs in other threads noted already in your replies.

If I may parry with this~ Si le sabre-briquet de 1767~

Norman McCormick · 24th November 2017, 08:30 PM

Thank you Ibrahiim, here are some more hilt designs.
My Regards,
Norman.

M ELEY · 25th November 2017, 12:17 AM

Excellent, excellent, excellent! Great pics of the multiple pierced French hilt types!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 25th November 2017, 01:40 PM

Nasturally the FDL has a permanent home with British Royalty since it appears on the Royal Cypher. In the Crown.

Norman McCormick · 25th November 2017, 09:27 PM

Another group of hilts.

kronckew · 26th November 2017, 08:48 AM

the royal french infantry/dragoon hangers were imported into the USA as aid for the continentals during the revolution, and modified by removing the outer part of the guard where your fleur is, like mine below. they also came without the fleur (napoleonic imperial period?), example from google also below. british dragoon swords of the period had round grips with an urn-like pommel, like the pooley swords made for the loyalists & crown forces in NY. the brits later used a hilt style more like these.

Hotspur · 26th November 2017, 01:27 PM

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a-Reynolds.jpg

The Tarleton portrait seems to show one. ^^^^

The Potter swords of NYC targeted for British and loyalist use. The archived ASOAC article.
https://web.archive.org/web/20110609...ein_potter.pdf

Then there are the pie crusted slotted hilt French swords we see with the bi-fold knuckle guards.

I have always adored this British dragoons sword.

Sorry, no fdl but I like slotted hilts.

Cheers

GC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th November 2017, 02:38 PM

If I can adjust aim here and focus upon Fleur de Lis ~ On Basket Hilt, Small Sword, Wilkinsons Sword and Belgian Tapestry.

fernando · 26th November 2017, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... If I can adjust aim here and focus upon Fleur de Lis ...

Let the topic direction be not your concern, Ibrahiim

.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th November 2017, 06:39 PM

While the fleur-de-lis has appeared on countless European coats of arms and flags over the centuries, it is particularly associated with the French monarchy in a historical context, and continues to appear in the arms of the King of Spain and the Grand Duke of Luxembourg, members of the House of Bourbon. It remains an enduring symbol of France that appears on French postage stamps, although it has never been adopted officially by any of the French republics.

kronckew · 26th November 2017, 07:15 PM

the quartered arms of the UK carried a blue field with gold fleur-de-leas up until 11802 to reflect the english claim to the french crown as a result of the english king's victory at agincourt and his marriage to the french king's daughter, as well as their treaty where he was to become king of france after his father-in-law died. sadly he died a few days before the french king. his son of course had a strong claim, but was a bit of a wimp. england governed large areas of france until the mid 16c. when they lost the last bit at calais. GIII recognised the french republic in the treaty of amiens and dropped his claim, which was not pursued by later monarchs after the restoration and the imperial periods, etc. prior to the change it would not be unusual to see the royal fleur de leas on an english sword.

Coat of arms, George the third, pre 1802, on a wall at Highworth church, wiltshire, not far from where i live. went in and used the head* there once. the lower right quarter with the horse reflects G3 was also king of Hanover in the germanic kingdoms.

*- toilet

Hotspur · 26th November 2017, 07:49 PM

Latin and French were still used somewhat exclusively in English legal documents, royal court and clergy (and upper crust) until the early 18th century (1066 and all that). General usage of French as the primary language after the conquest until the mid 14th century.

In looking at fdl decades ago, I see the internet hasn't changed the history much but starting with a very large volume of Webster's at grandma's house, that pointed to Egypt and beyond that in early ether sites, on to Sumeria.

My own personal fdl is nearby forever, in a 20th century board room chair from the 1920s with the entire backsplat carved as an fdl.

Cheers

GC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th November 2017, 07:55 PM

[QUOTE=kronckew]the quartered arms of the UK carried a blue field with gold fleur-de-leas up until 11802 to reflect the english claim to the french crown as a result of the english king's victory at agincourt and his marriage to the french king's daughter, as well as their treaty where he was to become king of france after his father-in-law died. sadly he died a few days before the french king. his son of course had a strong claim, but was a bit of a wimp. england governed large areas of france until the mid 16c. when they lost the last bit at calais. GIII recognised the french republic in the treaty of amiens and dropped his claim, which was not pursued by later monarchs after the restoration and the imperial periods, etc. prior to the change it would not be unusual to see the royal fleur de leas on an english sword.

Coat of arms, George the third, pre 1802, on a wall at Highworth church, wiltshire, not far from where i live. went in and used the head* there once. the lower right quarter with the horse reflects G3 was also king of Hanover in the germanic kingdoms.

Salaams kronckew It is another hugely diverse design structure of about nine different theories ...all interesting in my view but none quite proven...and all different. Maybe we don't need any single proof as it seems they all had their own place in history and of whatever flower it was ...Looking at the variants below can you believe that the Dorje ...Crown shaped religious artifacts... from Buddhist Tibet influenced a kind of Fleur de Lis design in Eastern European cultures.

By the late 13th century, an allegorical poem by Guillaume de Nangis (d. 1300), written at the abbey of Joyenval at Chambourcy, relates how the golden lilies on an azure ground were miraculously substituted for the crescents on Clovis' shield, a projection into the past of contemporary images of heraldry. Through this propagandist connection to Clovis, the fleur-de-lis has been taken in retrospect to symbolize all the Christian Frankish kings, most notably Charlemagne seen below. .

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2017, 05:17 AM

Norman,
I just wanted to thank you for posting these pages from the incredibly hard to access Christian Aries sets of material on French swords and the amazing drawings by Michael Petard!

The sword hilts of this early 19th century/Napoleonic period are pretty fascinating, and your example is a most notably designed hilt among the array that apparently existed.

As noted, the slotted guard, (also often 'four slot') which were popular in British swords clearly gained popularity in France. While the French seem to always be leaders in sword hilt designs, it does seem that in these times from c. 1780s into early 1800s, English designs had notable influence on the French.
This same slotted guard was notably part of the most attractive British M1803 infantry/flank company officers sword.

Also, the British 'spadroon' , of which the 'five ball' hilt was one, became popular in France with these orb groupings on the guard, and were termed
l' Anglaise.

The term Montmorency is also notable as this particular cross section blade became quite popular with British sword makers, and it seems that James Wooley used it on his blades from the M1788 patterns, and later with Deakin as his partner, on M1796 type blades.

Interesting cross influences between England and France in these times in their sword designs.

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2017, 06:29 AM

I have been puzzling over the term 'Montmorency' with this sword. As I noted previously, the term Montmorency was one I always noted in collecting British cavalry swords many years back. It was clearly a cross section which had an extra groove along the back of the blade in addition to the hollowed fuller.

I had never really pursued what the 'Montmorency' was for, assuming it was simply the name of someone who invented the form.

In trying to discover more here, all I can find is that this cross section and type of blade was attributed to a Count Cloiseul de Beaune who was of/or commanded a unit called the Montmorency dragoons c. 1710 + It was said these were made at Klingenthal.

This blade style apparently remained obscure until the 1780s, around the time of the French Revolution in 1789.

Apparently this unit was still active in these times, and the blade type, being more effective and stronger attracted attention enough it was used in swords for the 2nd Chasseurs c. 1799, and in use Napoleonic years IX and XI (1801, 1803). By 1822, the blade type became regulation in the M1822 cavalry sabre.

In one entry, it is noted the blade was used by the 'OLD' dragoons Montmorency and the 'Eveche' (1788).

I do not know what 'the Eveche' means, but would really like to know more of this French dragoon unit, and why it is named 'Montmorency', and more on the blade form.

I hope those out there keen on Napoleonic and French patterns might shed some light on this.

Norman, I had never heard of a 'little Montmorency' until now, and clearly there is a lot of history behind this. Thank you again for posting this wonderful example, and the great pages illustrating related examples of these French swords.

Hotspur · 27th November 2017, 07:09 AM

Under the control of (church and state) chasseurs of the bishop

A wiki, I'll take it for expedience

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A...C3%AAch%C3%A9s

Cheers

GC

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 27th November 2017, 04:46 PM

Please see https://oldswords.com0MODEL%20-%20A%...al%20Taste.pdf /articles/FRENCH%20LIGHT%20CAVALRY%20SWORD%201822%2

where the 1822 model comes under review.

Norman McCormick · 27th November 2017, 07:25 PM

(Le Trente un septembre 1789 les gardes du corps regalèrent les regiments de Flandres dragons de Montmorency gardes nationaux de Versailles et autres)

(Thirty one September 1789 the bodyguards regaled the Regiments of Flanders Dragoons of Montmorency National Guards of Versailles and others)

Jim McDougall · 27th November 2017, 07:55 PM

Thanks guys!
These are great, and now I know it was apparently the commander of this unit who was instrumental in developing this type of blade with key structural potency. What I wonder is why it was not more broadly accepted in the blade producing communities for nearly a hundred years.

The reference I found suggested the originals were fabricated at Klingenthal. I was actually not aware that Klingenthal was even a blade producer of note as early as this.

22nd November 2017, 09:03 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Petits Montmorency with Fleur de Lys guard. Hi, A French hanger type sword known as a Petits Montmorency. The blade is 74cms long and 3.2cms wide with the overall sword being 88cms with a blade of the Montmorency type hence the name. The tip is slightly bent but gentle heat and a vice may solve that. These types were in use pre-revolution by the Army, National Guard and the Navy although the Navy versions generally sported an anchor on the guard. The Fleur de Lys guard was in use from 1788 to 1792. This sword was probably used by an Infantry officer or perhaps a well heeled N.C.O. in the National Guard. As usual your thoughts and comments anticipated. My thanks to the Musee d l'Armee for the above information. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

23rd November 2017, 11:54 PM	#4
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Jim, Mark, Thanks as always for your views and input. I too was unaware of these Petits Montmorencys until I acquired this example. An internet search of Petits Montmorency sabre will bring up many examples, some plain and businesslike but also expensive blue and gilt types. The guards are many and varied with some pointing towards the particular arm of service in which the owner served e.g. anchor, grenade etc. The 'slotted type' cross guard and blade profile appears to be a common factor with the 'basket' and occasionally the grip as varying factors. My Regards, Norman. Last edited by Norman McCormick; 24th November 2017 at 12:04 AM.

24th November 2017, 07:30 PM	#5
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Excellent thread Norman and very much in step with the current run of FDL designs in other threads noted already in your replies. If I may parry with this~ Si le sabre-briquet de 1767~ Attached Images

24th November 2017, 08:30 PM	#6
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Thank you Ibrahiim, here are some more hilt designs. My Regards, Norman. Attached Images

25th November 2017, 01:40 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Nasturally the FDL has a permanent home with British Royalty since it appears on the Royal Cypher. In the Crown. Attached Images

22nd November 2017, 09:36 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you so much for posting this Norman!!! I have never seen one of these hilts, whose openwork design reflects the styles of the period on British spadroons in the general design. This is timed nicely with the studies being discussed on the fluer de lis concurrently. The Montmorency type blade was also most popular with some English sword types in these times.

23rd November 2017, 01:30 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Excellent acquisition, Norman! Like Jim, I had never seen nor been aware of this pattern sword! Of note are the two oval cut-out designs to the guard base, seen on the French officer's pattern naval sword with the swivel guard, like this one I used to own- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19372

25th November 2017, 12:17 AM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Excellent, excellent, excellent! Great pics of the multiple pierced French hilt types!

25th November 2017, 09:27 PM	#9
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Another group of hilts. Attached Images

26th November 2017, 08:48 AM	#10
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	the royal french infantry/dragoon hangers were imported into the USA as aid for the continentals during the revolution, and modified by removing the outer part of the guard where your fleur is, like mine below. they also came without the fleur (napoleonic imperial period?), example from google also below. british dragoon swords of the period had round grips with an urn-like pommel, like the pooley swords made for the loyalists & crown forces in NY. the brits later used a hilt style more like these. Attached Images

26th November 2017, 01:27 PM	#11
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...a-Reynolds.jpg The Tarleton portrait seems to show one. ^^^^ The Potter swords of NYC targeted for British and loyalist use. The archived ASOAC article. https://web.archive.org/web/20110609...ein_potter.pdf Then there are the pie crusted slotted hilt French swords we see with the bi-fold knuckle guards. I have always adored this British dragoons sword. Sorry, no fdl but I like slotted hilts. Cheers GC Attached Images Last edited by Hotspur; 26th November 2017 at 01:40 PM.

26th November 2017, 02:38 PM	#12
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	If I can adjust aim here and focus upon Fleur de Lis ~ On Basket Hilt, Small Sword, Wilkinsons Sword and Belgian Tapestry. Attached Images

26th November 2017, 06:39 PM	#14
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	While the fleur-de-lis has appeared on countless European coats of arms and flags over the centuries, it is particularly associated with the French monarchy in a historical context, and continues to appear in the arms of the King of Spain and the Grand Duke of Luxembourg, members of the House of Bourbon. It remains an enduring symbol of France that appears on French postage stamps, although it has never been adopted officially by any of the French republics.

26th November 2017, 07:15 PM	#15
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	the quartered arms of the UK carried a blue field with gold fleur-de-leas up until 11802 to reflect the english claim to the french crown as a result of the english king's victory at agincourt and his marriage to the french king's daughter, as well as their treaty where he was to become king of france after his father-in-law died. sadly he died a few days before the french king. his son of course had a strong claim, but was a bit of a wimp. england governed large areas of france until the mid 16c. when they lost the last bit at calais. GIII recognised the french republic in the treaty of amiens and dropped his claim, which was not pursued by later monarchs after the restoration and the imperial periods, etc. prior to the change it would not be unusual to see the royal fleur de leas on an english sword. Coat of arms, George the third, pre 1802, on a wall at Highworth church, wiltshire, not far from where i live. went in and used the head* there once. the lower right quarter with the horse reflects G3 was also king of Hanover in the germanic kingdoms. - toilet Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 26th November 2017 at 07:41 PM.*

26th November 2017, 07:49 PM	#16
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Latin and French were still used somewhat exclusively in English legal documents, royal court and clergy (and upper crust) until the early 18th century (1066 and all that). General usage of French as the primary language after the conquest until the mid 14th century. In looking at fdl decades ago, I see the internet hasn't changed the history much but starting with a very large volume of Webster's at grandma's house, that pointed to Egypt and beyond that in early ether sites, on to Sumeria. My own personal fdl is nearby forever, in a 20th century board room chair from the 1920s with the entire backsplat carved as an fdl. Cheers GC

26th November 2017, 07:55 PM	#17
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	[QUOTE=kronckew]the quartered arms of the UK carried a blue field with gold fleur-de-leas up until 11802 to reflect the english claim to the french crown as a result of the english king's victory at agincourt and his marriage to the french king's daughter, as well as their treaty where he was to become king of france after his father-in-law died. sadly he died a few days before the french king. his son of course had a strong claim, but was a bit of a wimp. england governed large areas of france until the mid 16c. when they lost the last bit at calais. GIII recognised the french republic in the treaty of amiens and dropped his claim, which was not pursued by later monarchs after the restoration and the imperial periods, etc. prior to the change it would not be unusual to see the royal fleur de leas on an english sword. Coat of arms, George the third, pre 1802, on a wall at Highworth church, wiltshire, not far from where i live. went in and used the head* there once. the lower right quarter with the horse reflects G3 was also king of Hanover in the germanic kingdoms. Salaams kronckew It is another hugely diverse design structure of about nine different theories ...all interesting in my view but none quite proven...and all different. Maybe we don't need any single proof as it seems they all had their own place in history and of whatever flower it was ...Looking at the variants below can you believe that the Dorje ...Crown shaped religious artifacts... from Buddhist Tibet influenced a kind of Fleur de Lis design in Eastern European cultures. By the late 13th century, an allegorical poem by Guillaume de Nangis (d. 1300), written at the abbey of Joyenval at Chambourcy, relates how the golden lilies on an azure ground were miraculously substituted for the crescents on Clovis' shield, a projection into the past of contemporary images of heraldry. Through this propagandist connection to Clovis, the fleur-de-lis has been taken in retrospect to symbolize all the Christian Frankish kings, most notably Charlemagne seen below. . Attached Images

27th November 2017, 05:17 AM	#18
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Norman, I just wanted to thank you for posting these pages from the incredibly hard to access Christian Aries sets of material on French swords and the amazing drawings by Michael Petard! The sword hilts of this early 19th century/Napoleonic period are pretty fascinating, and your example is a most notably designed hilt among the array that apparently existed. As noted, the slotted guard, (also often 'four slot') which were popular in British swords clearly gained popularity in France. While the French seem to always be leaders in sword hilt designs, it does seem that in these times from c. 1780s into early 1800s, English designs had notable influence on the French. This same slotted guard was notably part of the most attractive British M1803 infantry/flank company officers sword. Also, the British 'spadroon' , of which the 'five ball' hilt was one, became popular in France with these orb groupings on the guard, and were termed l' Anglaise. The term Montmorency is also notable as this particular cross section blade became quite popular with British sword makers, and it seems that James Wooley used it on his blades from the M1788 patterns, and later with Deakin as his partner, on M1796 type blades. Interesting cross influences between England and France in these times in their sword designs.

27th November 2017, 06:29 AM	#19
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Montmorency I have been puzzling over the term 'Montmorency' with this sword. As I noted previously, the term Montmorency was one I always noted in collecting British cavalry swords many years back. It was clearly a cross section which had an extra groove along the back of the blade in addition to the hollowed fuller. I had never really pursued what the 'Montmorency' was for, assuming it was simply the name of someone who invented the form. In trying to discover more here, all I can find is that this cross section and type of blade was attributed to a Count Cloiseul de Beaune who was of/or commanded a unit called the Montmorency dragoons c. 1710 + It was said these were made at Klingenthal. This blade style apparently remained obscure until the 1780s, around the time of the French Revolution in 1789. Apparently this unit was still active in these times, and the blade type, being more effective and stronger attracted attention enough it was used in swords for the 2nd Chasseurs c. 1799, and in use Napoleonic years IX and XI (1801, 1803). By 1822, the blade type became regulation in the M1822 cavalry sabre. In one entry, it is noted the blade was used by the 'OLD' dragoons Montmorency and the 'Eveche' (1788). I do not know what 'the Eveche' means, but would really like to know more of this French dragoon unit, and why it is named 'Montmorency', and more on the blade form. I hope those out there keen on Napoleonic and French patterns might shed some light on this. Norman, I had never heard of a 'little Montmorency' until now, and clearly there is a lot of history behind this. Thank you again for posting this wonderful example, and the great pages illustrating related examples of these French swords.

27th November 2017, 07:09 AM	#20
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	Under the control of (church and state) chasseurs of the bishop A wiki, I'll take it for expedience https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A...C3%AAch%C3%A9s Cheers GC

27th November 2017, 04:46 PM	#21
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Please see https://oldswords.com0MODEL%20-%20A%...al%20Taste.pdf /articles/FRENCH%20LIGHT%20CAVALRY%20SWORD%201822%2 where the 1822 model comes under review.

27th November 2017, 07:25 PM	#22
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	(Le Trente un septembre 1789 les gardes du corps regalèrent les regiments de Flandres dragons de Montmorency gardes nationaux de Versailles et autres) (Thirty one September 1789 the bodyguards regaled the Regiments of Flanders Dragoons of Montmorency National Guards of Versailles and others) Attached Images

27th November 2017, 07:55 PM	#23
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thanks guys! These are great, and now I know it was apparently the commander of this unit who was instrumental in developing this type of blade with key structural potency. What I wonder is why it was not more broadly accepted in the blade producing communities for nearly a hundred years. The reference I found suggested the originals were fabricated at Klingenthal. I was actually not aware that Klingenthal was even a blade producer of note as early as this.