Wrong allocation ?

Martin Lubojacky · 15th November 2011, 06:01 PM

On November 6, 2011, Meisner-Neumann auction took place in Prague. There were also a few eastern weapons (not 100 % my field), and I am not definitely sure, if they attributed correct countries"
- Small knife in silver sheath with double hook for small animals and tinderbox was described as from Mongolia (I thought it should be Tibet).
- Small dagger with ray skin was attributed to Chad (ray skin in Chad).
- Also I have newer seen Keris with such small wiwes - described as from Borneo (is it real piece or souvenier ?).

Thanks for standpoints, regards,
Martin

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2011, 06:52 PM

Definitely need Lews's input here!
Rayskin in Chad ?????

Iain · 15th November 2011, 07:09 PM

There is a species of freshwater ray in the Benue river... Style of the knife is close enough to fit this area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_stingray

I'm having trouble finding if any freshwater rays exist in Lake Chad. But there are certainly rivers with them around in the right area for this knife.

Stan S. · 15th November 2011, 07:17 PM

Decorations on the first item and the shape of the knife definetely point at Tibet

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2011, 09:12 PM

Thanks so much Iain, had no idea these were in these regions. Naturally with rayskin I think of oriental weapon grips and in some cases those on Eastern European sabres' grips. Of course they were used on British officers grips, but do we know of any other Saharan weapons with this material?
I think of crocodile first or the monitor, but havent seen rayskin.

All best,
Jim

Iain · 15th November 2011, 09:34 PM

Hi Jim,

I don't blame you for thinking of eastern swords.

I can't recall a Sahel weapon I've seen before with rayskin. However from the wikipedia article it appears the Niger stingray is fished heavily and eaten. So I imagine an ample supply of skin was/is available.

The two types of stingray found in fresh water in Africa are both in Western Africa, nothing in Lake Chad.

Unfortunately besides the wikipedia articles I could turn up almost nothing on Google and absolutely nothing weapon related.

An anomaly perhaps, but the resource to get the ray skin certainly seems to be in place. Interestingly the Wikipedia article notes that the Hausa know it as the 'water scorpion'. I wonder if any tribes in the area associated animistic or totemic values to the ray?

Indianajones · 15th November 2011, 09:40 PM

Nice Keris there! Good for cutting crunchy bread and stick it into some cheesefondue!

Am not a keris-collector but would like to own that one; curious what others' opinions are . . .!

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2011, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Jim,

I don't blame you for thinking of eastern swords.

I can't recall a Sahel weapon I've seen before with rayskin. However from the wikipedia article it appears the Niger stingray is fished heavily and eaten. So I imagine an ample supply of skin was/is available.

The two types of stingray found in fresh water in Africa are both in Western Africa, nothing in Lake Chad.

Unfortunately besides the wikipedia articles I could turn up almost nothing on Google and absolutely nothing weapon related.

An anomaly perhaps, but the resource to get the ray skin certainly seems to be in place. Interestingly the Wikipedia article notes that the Hausa know it as the 'water scorpion'. I wonder if any tribes in the area associated animistic or totemic values to the ray?

Great stuff Iain! Now theres a question for us . Knowing the totemism characteristically applied toward various creatures symbolically, could these be somehow represented ?
We do know the catfish occurs in stylized symbolism in Sudanese and I think Egyptian areas.
That central dagger seems West African, yes? I suppose Chad could be possible as eastern reach.

Martin Lubojacky · 15th November 2011, 11:12 PM

As far as middle knife/dagger is concerned:
Acc to "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, ray skin was used as material for scabbards of Asante (Ghana) important sword Afena - so material known at least in the part of the wider region. But does the shape of the knife correspond with the types used in Chad ? I think it is very difficult to allocate this small dagger to some tribe (?)
Regards,
Martin

Jim McDougall · 15th November 2011, 11:21 PM

Excellent Martin !!! Thank you for finding that reference. You're right, it will be hard to place distinct attribution, but most likely collective regional scope where the type most prevalent.

Iain · 15th November 2011, 11:25 PM

This basic style of dagger is found in a lot of tribes. I think it would be somewhat impossible to pin it down exactly.

Great to hear of another rayskin reference in West Africa! I for one, am learning a lot today, never even thought about the material in connection with Africa.

Sajen · 15th November 2011, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Nice Keris there! Good for cutting crunchy bread and stick it into some cheesefondue!

Am not a keris-collector but would like to own that one; curious what others' opinions are . . .!

This is the best you can do with this keris!

It is a recent creation of a panjang keris from Sumatra.

Regards,

Detlef

Gavin Nugent · 16th November 2011, 12:22 AM

With the Ray skin reference I recalled this thread from the archive in my mind.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Dahomey

I have not had time to read it but is might offer a little more

asomotif · 16th November 2011, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

recent creation of a panjang keris from Sumatra.

Regards,

Detlef

There is an epray seller on Borneo selling similar 'keris'.
Maybe that is the provenance, explaining the Borneo desription.

Ugly items, weird that someone puts time an effort in creating it

Best regards,Willem

Martin Lubojacky · 16th November 2011, 09:03 AM

Thanks for pieces of interesting information to all.
Regards,
Martin

dennee · 16th November 2011, 04:24 PM

First one is definitely Tibet. Looks like a woman's belt, probably from the northeast. In addition to the utility knife and the mechag (pouch holding flint and tinder and with a steel striker plate) it has a milk pail hook. The (likely imitation) coral and other decoration is solidly Tibetan. The curved knife sheath and its metal work are also characteristic.

Rod Charters · 16th November 2011, 05:24 PM

Just to add that in Khartoum it is common to find ray tails used for making whips. The ones I've seen are all new and I have always assumed these come from the red sea.

Rod

Sajen · 16th November 2011, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

There is an epray seller on Borneo selling similar 'keris'.
Maybe that is the provenance, explaining the Borneo desription.
Best regards,Willem

Hi Willem,

funny, this coming to my mind as well.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 19th November 2011, 02:59 PM

Martin, i might suggest that in the future you divide a group like this up and post them in their respective forums. You would get far more responses about the keris in the keris forum. But i do agree with what has already been said about it.

Martin Lubojacky · 20th November 2011, 01:38 AM

Hi David,
next time I will do as you said. Thanks for confirmation re keris
Regards
Martin

DaveS · 21st November 2011, 03:39 AM

Yes, the kris is a recent creation, but i doubt if any of the top custom
damascus knifmakers in the U.S could even come close to duplicating it.
They simply don't have the experience working with the style of these
Indonesian type blades. They will also be the first to admit that fact..Dave

A.alnakkas · 21st November 2011, 04:19 AM

Abit off-topic; but is the keris like the yemeni Jambiya? a dress item as far as I know so there will be new ones. But from what I see, those new ones look awesome! How bad it is to buy a new one?

Battara · 21st November 2011, 04:22 AM

Well in a sense yes - the keris is like the jambiya in that it is part of ceremonial dress and new ones are being made as we speak - the craft is alive and well.

Rick · 21st November 2011, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Abit off-topic; but is the keris like the yemeni Jambiya? a dress item as far as I know so there will be new ones. But from what I see, those new ones look awesome! How bad it is to buy a new one?

For the first part:
Yes, like a Jambiya and possibly a bit more .

For the second part:
Not bad at all !
Best to be educated first .

Sajen · 26th November 2011, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

For the first part:
Yes, like a Jambiya and possibly a bit more .

For the second part:
Not bad at all !
Best to be educated first .

WOW, what a beautiful keris in all parts!

Regards,

Detlef

Rick · 26th November 2011, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

WOW, what a beautiful keris in all parts!

Regards,

Detlef

Thanks Detlef .

One of the many wonders to be found in the Warung, no ?

15th November 2011, 06:01 PM	#1
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Wrong allocation ? On November 6, 2011, Meisner-Neumann auction took place in Prague. There were also a few eastern weapons (not 100 % my field), and I am not definitely sure, if they attributed correct countries" - Small knife in silver sheath with double hook for small animals and tinderbox was described as from Mongolia (I thought it should be Tibet). - Small dagger with ray skin was attributed to Chad (ray skin in Chad). - Also I have newer seen Keris with such small wiwes - described as from Borneo (is it real piece or souvenier ?). Thanks for standpoints, regards, Martin Attached Images

16th November 2011, 12:22 AM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Ray skin With the Ray skin reference I recalled this thread from the archive in my mind. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=Dahomey I have not had time to read it but is might offer a little more

16th November 2011, 05:24 PM	#17
Rod Charters Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 48	ray tails Just to add that in Khartoum it is common to find ray tails used for making whips. The ones I've seen are all new and I have always assumed these come from the red sea. Rod

15th November 2011, 06:52 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Definitely need Lews's input here! Rayskin in Chad ?????

15th November 2011, 07:09 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	There is a species of freshwater ray in the Benue river... Style of the knife is close enough to fit this area. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niger_stingray I'm having trouble finding if any freshwater rays exist in Lake Chad. But there are certainly rivers with them around in the right area for this knife.

15th November 2011, 07:17 PM	#4
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Decorations on the first item and the shape of the knife definetely point at Tibet

15th November 2011, 09:12 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thanks so much Iain, had no idea these were in these regions. Naturally with rayskin I think of oriental weapon grips and in some cases those on Eastern European sabres' grips. Of course they were used on British officers grips, but do we know of any other Saharan weapons with this material? I think of crocodile first or the monitor, but havent seen rayskin. All best, Jim

15th November 2011, 09:34 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Jim, I don't blame you for thinking of eastern swords. I can't recall a Sahel weapon I've seen before with rayskin. However from the wikipedia article it appears the Niger stingray is fished heavily and eaten. So I imagine an ample supply of skin was/is available. The two types of stingray found in fresh water in Africa are both in Western Africa, nothing in Lake Chad. Unfortunately besides the wikipedia articles I could turn up almost nothing on Google and absolutely nothing weapon related. An anomaly perhaps, but the resource to get the ray skin certainly seems to be in place. Interestingly the Wikipedia article notes that the Hausa know it as the 'water scorpion'. I wonder if any tribes in the area associated animistic or totemic values to the ray?

15th November 2011, 09:40 PM	#7
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Nice Keris there! Good for cutting crunchy bread and stick it into some cheesefondue! Am not a keris-collector but would like to own that one; curious what others' opinions are . . .!

15th November 2011, 11:12 PM	#9
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	As far as middle knife/dagger is concerned: Acc to "African Arms and Armour" by Christopher Spring, ray skin was used as material for scabbards of Asante (Ghana) important sword Afena - so material known at least in the part of the wider region. But does the shape of the knife correspond with the types used in Chad ? I think it is very difficult to allocate this small dagger to some tribe (?) Regards, Martin

15th November 2011, 11:21 PM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Excellent Martin !!! Thank you for finding that reference. You're right, it will be hard to place distinct attribution, but most likely collective regional scope where the type most prevalent.

15th November 2011, 11:25 PM	#11
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	This basic style of dagger is found in a lot of tribes. I think it would be somewhat impossible to pin it down exactly. Great to hear of another rayskin reference in West Africa! I for one, am learning a lot today, never even thought about the material in connection with Africa.

16th November 2011, 09:03 AM	#15
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Thanks for pieces of interesting information to all. Regards, Martin

16th November 2011, 04:24 PM	#16
dennee Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: College Park, MD Posts: 186	First one is definitely Tibet. Looks like a woman's belt, probably from the northeast. In addition to the utility knife and the mechag (pouch holding flint and tinder and with a steel striker plate) it has a milk pail hook. The (likely imitation) coral and other decoration is solidly Tibetan. The curved knife sheath and its metal work are also characteristic.

19th November 2011, 02:59 PM	#19
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Martin, i might suggest that in the future you divide a group like this up and post them in their respective forums. You would get far more responses about the keris in the keris forum. But i do agree with what has already been said about it.

20th November 2011, 01:38 AM	#20
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi David, next time I will do as you said. Thanks for confirmation re keris Regards Martin

21st November 2011, 03:39 AM	#21
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Yes, the kris is a recent creation, but i doubt if any of the top custom damascus knifmakers in the U.S could even come close to duplicating it. They simply don't have the experience working with the style of these Indonesian type blades. They will also be the first to admit that fact..Dave

21st November 2011, 04:19 AM	#22
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Abit off-topic; but is the keris like the yemeni Jambiya? a dress item as far as I know so there will be new ones. But from what I see, those new ones look awesome! How bad it is to buy a new one?

21st November 2011, 04:22 AM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	Well in a sense yes - the keris is like the jambiya in that it is part of ceremonial dress and new ones are being made as we speak - the craft is alive and well.