GERMAN SIDEARM?? for I.D Please

kahnjar1 · 7th November 2008, 08:50 PM

A friend of mine has this item acquired recently. Can someone please I.D. Not shown in pics, but there is a Crown over 0 over 8 on the spine of the blade.
Thanks in advance.
Regards Stuart

Atlantia · 7th November 2008, 09:46 PM

It appears to be a variation of the 1869 Werder Yataghan bayonet with the end cut down.
At least the blade seems to be that.
If the handle is original its some variation I'm unfamiliar with, presumably for Artillery (or possibly a bandsman?)

Edit: There were plenty of variations within these bayonets/swords, I wonder if this was made as-is even with the short nose? Does it look recently cut back? The curve shows the blank was intended to be the standard Yataghan, but it would be an effective stabber at this length, but Its a strange blade to see in a handle which you expect a double edged 'gladius' style blade, but there were other types. The pioneer reg's had some single edged with saw backs.
Its an interesting piece.

Atlantia · 10th November 2008, 05:58 PM

Hi Stuart,
Suprised nobody else has chimed in to solve this little mystery!
From reviewing the pictures it looks like the blade has been in the handle for a very long time so I'd assume its original to it. I notice that it has a single tang pin, whereas the bayonet version would have had 2 plus the tang was full handle length incorporating the spring catch etc. The tang in your sword must be shorter by the look of it, whether or not it extends far beyond the pin. The pin is in the right place (as in the same as the bayonet). I've had quite a few Yataghan bayonets over the years and I specifically remember having one with the same solingen makers marks. I don't recognise the Gladius style handle though. I'm thinking it may well be a deliberate marriage shortened bayonet blade and gladius handle for a specific reason. The bandsmens swords often have lighter handles, and yours is the same scale as artillery or pioneer style swords which would make the short blade very back heavy I imagine. Have you had a chance to have another close look and see if you notice anything more?

Regards
Gene

William V. · 10th November 2008, 08:03 PM

The marking could be:

Weyersberg & Stamm
Solingen

All the best

William

Iliad · 12th November 2008, 10:39 PM

Hi everyone. I am the owner of the item, which my good friend Stu has kindly posted for me. There are no markings other than those already mentioned.
I shall attempt to attach 2 pics of the piece side by side with a Snider sword bayonet, for comparative purposes. Thank you for your assistance. Brian

Atlantia · 15th November 2008, 01:40 PM

http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/...n%20models.htm

About half way down the page. Still can't place tha hilt on yours.

Iliad · 15th November 2008, 09:26 PM

Atlantia, thank you so much for the time and effort which you have put in on my behalf. Do you think that the 08 on the back edge could refer to 1908?
Brian

Atlantia · 15th November 2008, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Atlantia, thank you so much for the time and effort which you have put in on my behalf. Do you think that the 08 on the back edge could refer to 1908?
Brian

Hi Brian.

Well, there are much (much much) more knowledgeable members than me, and I'm suprised they haven't seen this thread yet. I'm sure when they do they'll solve this completely for you.
If this sword/bayonet was British then having '08 could refer to the pattern, issue date or even the date it was removed from service. Can you take a snap of the back edge?
I'm really no expert on these, especially the German ones. I just had one like the one I've pictured with the W & ST markings and remembered it.
I really like these bayonets/swords especially the gladius and Yataghan ones. To find one that seems to be a hybrid of the two styles is really interesting.

The Yataghan style blade as far as I know is exclusively for bayonets, while the gladius style hilt seems to be reserved for 'short swords' issued to Artillery/Pioneer and lighter versions to bandsmen.
If the '08 is indeed a date, then its far to late for the blade and may indicate a deliberate hybrid using a old blade. I'm as intrigued as you to find out if the blade was recut prior to issue or to hide damage afterwards.
Either way, I love it!

Regards
Gene

Iliad · 16th November 2008, 02:51 AM

Good morning/evening Gene, thank you once again for your input. I have taken a pic of the back edge, which shows the crown over 0 over 08. Then, something which I had not noticed before, there is a very tiny crown over what looks like an "R". I hope that the pic comes through ok, I am of the older generation and computers are new-fangled inventions of the devil!I am still getting used to electricity.
Brian

Iliad · 7th June 2009, 11:52 PM

Hi all,
Sorry about resurrecting an old thread, but I think that I have solved this little mystery. I believe this piece to be a Bavarian Model 1892 Artillery sword, with a shortened blade, reduced by 3 - 4 inches.
Brian

7th November 2008, 08:50 PM	#1
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,741	GERMAN SIDEARM?? for I.D Please A friend of mine has this item acquired recently. Can someone please I.D. Not shown in pics, but there is a Crown over 0 over 8 on the spine of the blade. Thanks in advance. Regards Stuart Attached Images

7th November 2008, 09:46 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	It appears to be a variation of the 1869 Werder Yataghan bayonet with the end cut down. At least the blade seems to be that. If the handle is original its some variation I'm unfamiliar with, presumably for Artillery (or possibly a bandsman?) Edit: There were plenty of variations within these bayonets/swords, I wonder if this was made as-is even with the short nose? Does it look recently cut back? The curve shows the blank was intended to be the standard Yataghan, but it would be an effective stabber at this length, but Its a strange blade to see in a handle which you expect a double edged 'gladius' style blade, but there were other types. The pioneer reg's had some single edged with saw backs. Its an interesting piece. Last edited by Atlantia; 8th November 2008 at 02:09 AM.

10th November 2008, 05:58 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Stuart, Suprised nobody else has chimed in to solve this little mystery! From reviewing the pictures it looks like the blade has been in the handle for a very long time so I'd assume its original to it. I notice that it has a single tang pin, whereas the bayonet version would have had 2 plus the tang was full handle length incorporating the spring catch etc. The tang in your sword must be shorter by the look of it, whether or not it extends far beyond the pin. The pin is in the right place (as in the same as the bayonet). I've had quite a few Yataghan bayonets over the years and I specifically remember having one with the same solingen makers marks. I don't recognise the Gladius style handle though. I'm thinking it may well be a deliberate marriage shortened bayonet blade and gladius handle for a specific reason. The bandsmens swords often have lighter handles, and yours is the same scale as artillery or pioneer style swords which would make the short blade very back heavy I imagine. Have you had a chance to have another close look and see if you notice anything more? Regards Gene Last edited by Atlantia; 10th November 2008 at 06:16 PM.

12th November 2008, 10:39 PM	#5
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	German Sidearm (?) Hi everyone. I am the owner of the item, which my good friend Stu has kindly posted for me. There are no markings other than those already mentioned. I shall attempt to attach 2 pics of the piece side by side with a Snider sword bayonet, for comparative purposes. Thank you for your assistance. Brian Attached Images

15th November 2008, 09:26 PM	#7
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	German Sidearm? Atlantia, thank you so much for the time and effort which you have put in on my behalf. Do you think that the 08 on the back edge could refer to 1908? Brian

10th November 2008, 08:03 PM	#4
William V. Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 33	The marking could be: Weyersberg & Stamm Solingen All the best William

15th November 2008, 01:40 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	http://www.old-smithy.info/bayonets/...n%20models.htm About half way down the page. Still can't place tha hilt on yours.

16th November 2008, 02:51 AM	#9
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	German Sidearm? Good morning/evening Gene, thank you once again for your input. I have taken a pic of the back edge, which shows the crown over 0 over 08. Then, something which I had not noticed before, there is a very tiny crown over what looks like an "R". I hope that the pic comes through ok, I am of the older generation and computers are new-fangled inventions of the devil!I am still getting used to electricity. Brian Attached Images

7th June 2009, 11:52 PM	#10
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	German Sidearm for I D Hi all, Sorry about resurrecting an old thread, but I think that I have solved this little mystery. I believe this piece to be a Bavarian Model 1892 Artillery sword, with a shortened blade, reduced by 3 - 4 inches. Brian