Tourist trinkets? Bich'Hwa, Khatar, Jambiya

celtan · 16th December 2010, 09:07 PM

Hi Guys,

I recently bought some stuff that caught my fancy, for desk ornaments mostly.

OTOH, the source for these was a well-known collector's cache. He used to travel and collect ethnographic weapons from across the world. As such, and since my forte is european weapons, and that freely admit to know zilch about ethno blades, I decided to ask your opinions on such.

Meaning, I have been wondering if what I bought was of a better grade that I suspected, or if they truly are tourists trinkets. Mind you, the only reason I have to suspect their touristry raison d'etre is that they are too...pretty.

Best

Manolo

Enclosed are some pics of the blades in question:

TVV · 16th December 2010, 09:16 PM

Yup, tourist junk - I'd gladly take it off your hands, and even pay the shipping cost for a parcel from PR.

Now seriously, all of the items appear to date back to at least the 19th century and to be of above average quality, and certainly meant for use within the culture. Defeinitely not souvenirs.

You might want to try etching the blades as there is a high likelyhood that they may be made of wootz.

I wish I did this well whenever I bought things, which I knew little about.

Regards,
Teodor

Lew · 16th December 2010, 09:42 PM

You pick up some very nice pieces. The khanjar is Persian the bichwa is mid to late 19th century and the katar is 1830-50 with nice koftgari blade is most likely wootz.

Congrats

Emanuel · 16th December 2010, 09:52 PM

Pretty trinkets indeed Manolo, wish I could stumble on such a group in my neck of the woods.

Congrats on a very good find!

Emanuel

delor · 17th December 2010, 12:38 AM

The persian blade might be wootz too. Most of them with such sculpted handle are.

The katar koftagi seems a bit unusual. Would it be possible for you to show a closer view ?

celtan · 17th December 2010, 01:42 AM

Hi Guys,

I'm very pleasantly surprised..!

The jambiya looks too decorated to be...real? I just don't see a persian chieftain carrying it under his belt. I understood that muslims are loathe to depict human form in their art. The figures appear to be of the assyrian-babylonian past, not muslim at all. Nonetheless, very appealing art. Buffalo horn?

Also, the Bishwa's blade attachment to the brass hilt looks too flimsy to be useful as a weapon. A strong hit could presumably separate both. Its blade is single, and the orientation runs parallel to the plane between handle and knuckle-guard, while the bich'hwa blades I have seen are perpendicular to it.

The katar handle is very ... narrow. I don't see how an adult could grab it effectively. Is that copper or brass inlaid into the handle?

What do you think of these points..? And thanks for this opportunity to learn.

Best regards and Merry Xmas!

Manolo

BTW: If someone could send me a PM with what they believe would be average current value, it would be very appreciated. If significant, it would also help to keep them out of wifey's hands...

celtan · 17th December 2010, 01:43 AM

How do I _safely_ etch a blade?

Best
M

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Yup, tourist junk - I'd gladly take it off your hands, and even pay the shipping cost for a parcel from PR.

Now seriously, all of the items appear to date back to at least the 19th century and to be of above average quality, and certainly meant for use within the culture. Defeinitely not souvenirs.

You might want to try etching the blades as there is a high likelyhood that they may be made of wootz.

I wish I did this well whenever I bought things, which I knew little about.

Regards,
Teodor

celtan · 17th December 2010, 01:51 AM

Thank you!

Khanjar or jambiya? What's the difference?

koftgari? Hmmm,,,AIK the blade is...gorgeously beautiful.

What about the symbol on the bich'was's blade? Talismanic, or maker's mark?

Best & Muchas Gracias

Manolo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

You pick up some very nice pieces. The khanjar is Persian the bichwa is mid to late 19th century and the katar is 1830-50 with nice koftgari blade is most likely wootz.

Congrats

TVV · 17th December 2010, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by celtan

How do I _safely_ etch a blade?

Best
M

It's quite easy - you wash the blade and rub it with alcohol to make sure it is as clean as it can get, and then you dip it in some acidic solution. I prefer diluted vinegar: 1 part vinegar to 4 parts warm water. Then take out of the solution as soon as you are satisfied with the resulting pattern (assuming there is a pattern - keep in mind that sometimes the blade is plain steel and therefore there would be no pattern), wash with soap and dry thoroughly. If you search the forum, there are lots of threads on the subject.

The human effigies are typical of Persian art. I am not sure if it has anything to do with the Shia affiliation of the large majority in Persia, but it appears that living creatures depictions were not a tabu there, as opposed for example to the Sunni Ottoman Empire. I am not sure what material the hilt is made from, but it looks like bone from the picture - a pic of the pommel might help determine whether it is bone or ivory. Certainly does not look like bufalo horn.

Regards,
Teodor

celtan · 17th December 2010, 02:49 AM

Thanks T.,

Pics included

What's the big deal w this wootz steel? Is it a premium kind? All I know is that the vikings and celts in Spain used it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

It's quite easy - you wash the blade and rub it with alcohol to make sure it is as clean as it can get, and then you dip it in some acidic solution. I prefer diluted vinegar: 1 part vinegar to 4 parts warm water. Then take out of the solution as soon as you are satisfied with the resulting pattern (assuming there is a pattern - keep in mind that sometimes the blade is plain steel and therefore there would be no pattern), wash with soap and dry thoroughly. If you search the forum, there are lots of threads on the subject.

The human effigies are typical of Persian art. I am not sure if it has anything to do with the Shia affiliation of the large majority in Persia, but it appears that living creatures depictions were not a tabu there, as opposed for example to the Sunni Ottoman Empire. I am not sure what material the hilt is made from, but it looks like bone from the picture - a pic of the pommel might help determine whether it is bone or ivory. Certainly does not look like bufalo horn.

Regards,
Teodor

Emanuel · 17th December 2010, 03:25 AM

I'll try to address some of your points.

The narrowness of Indian hilts has been discussed many times. In most cases we can either accept that the people who intended to use the katar (jamadhar) were of smaller stature, with smaller hands. In some cases also note that weapons were made for children.

The khanjar is representative of Qajar era styles. "Jambiya" was historically attributed to the Saudi/Yemeni variety of curved daggers. Khanjar is a broader term used in Oman and other Arab speaking or even Muslim countries outside the Arabian Peninsula.

About wootz, while there may be evidence of its use by Vikings this was very limited and through trade. Perhaps you are confusing with pattern-welded "damascus". Damascus is often used as an umbrella term for most any metal with a strong pattern. It can be mechanical or chemical. The first consists of forge welding steels with different carbon contents, twisting and folding them in order to produce a more or less homogeneous bar of steel with the same carbon content all the way through. When etched, the different types of steel show a different shade, depending on carbon content. This technology was indeed used by Celts, Vikings, and almost every other steel using culture on the planet.

The second, wootz, is "crucible steel" or essentially cast steel first produced in India ~2000 years ago. The cooling cycle of molten steel was controlled to produce a very specific crystalline structure in the steel. The pattern comes from this chemical structure, not from the mechanical welding of different metals. It was completely homogeneous and very hard.

Hope this helps, all of these points have been discussed many times on the forum and there are lots of threads on wootz and Indian weapons.

Regards,
Emanuel

- Some pics from Oriental Arms -
The top one is a wootz ingot
The next two pictures are of wootz katar (jamadhar) and shamshir blades
The bottom is of a pattern-welded yataghan blade with the "Turkish ribbon" pattern

Battara · 17th December 2010, 04:06 AM

When it comes to wootz like what is on the katar and khanjar/jambiya, I would send it to Philip Tom because he can polish it correctly and then etch it correctly.

TVV · 17th December 2010, 06:51 AM

Thanks for the pictures Manolo,

To me the hilt material looks like walruss ivory from the close-ups, as I can see the inner dentine part in the middle of the hilt.

delor · 17th December 2010, 10:37 AM

Yes that is walrus ivory, which was the most usual material with this kinf of dagger.

celtan · 17th December 2010, 06:32 PM

Interesting, I would have thought that walrus would be a rare animal in those latitudes. Thanks!

So, does anyone have an idea of the costs usually associated to etching andpolishing these blades "properly"by a proffessional? I don't have an inkling of the market value of the items in question, s I don't know if doing that is economically sound...A similar situation arose wit a couple officer's katanas I own.

Best

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

Yes that is walrus ivory, which was the most usual material with this kinf of dagger.

delor · 17th December 2010, 08:32 PM

Yes the walrus is more than rare in Persia, but walrus ivory used to come Russia.

Battara · 18th December 2010, 12:03 AM

Walrus was traded all around the area from Russia.

Ask Philip Tom who is still a member of this forum. He specializes in polishing and etching wootz properly.

16th December 2010, 09:07 PM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Tourist trinkets? Bich'Hwa, Khatar, Jambiya Hi Guys, I recently bought some stuff that caught my fancy, for desk ornaments mostly. OTOH, the source for these was a well-known collector's cache. He used to travel and collect ethnographic weapons from across the world. As such, and since my forte is european weapons, and that freely admit to know zilch about ethno blades, I decided to ask your opinions on such. Meaning, I have been wondering if what I bought was of a better grade that I suspected, or if they truly are tourists trinkets. Mind you, the only reason I have to suspect their touristry raison d'etre is that they are too...pretty. Best Manolo Enclosed are some pics of the blades in question: Attached Images

17th December 2010, 01:42 AM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Guys, I'm very pleasantly surprised..! The jambiya looks too decorated to be...real? I just don't see a persian chieftain carrying it under his belt. I understood that muslims are loathe to depict human form in their art. The figures appear to be of the assyrian-babylonian past, not muslim at all. Nonetheless, very appealing art. Buffalo horn? Also, the Bishwa's blade attachment to the brass hilt looks too flimsy to be useful as a weapon. A strong hit could presumably separate both. Its blade is single, and the orientation runs parallel to the plane between handle and knuckle-guard, while the bich'hwa blades I have seen are perpendicular to it. The katar handle is very ... narrow. I don't see how an adult could grab it effectively. Is that copper or brass inlaid into the handle? What do you think of these points..? And thanks for this opportunity to learn. Best regards and Merry Xmas! Manolo BTW: If someone could send me a PM with what they believe would be average current value, it would be very appreciated. If significant, it would also help to keep them out of wifey's hands... Attached Images Last edited by celtan; 17th December 2010 at 02:06 AM.

17th December 2010, 03:25 AM	#11
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	I'll try to address some of your points. The narrowness of Indian hilts has been discussed many times. In most cases we can either accept that the people who intended to use the katar (jamadhar) were of smaller stature, with smaller hands. In some cases also note that weapons were made for children. The khanjar is representative of Qajar era styles. "Jambiya" was historically attributed to the Saudi/Yemeni variety of curved daggers. Khanjar is a broader term used in Oman and other Arab speaking or even Muslim countries outside the Arabian Peninsula. About wootz, while there may be evidence of its use by Vikings this was very limited and through trade. Perhaps you are confusing with pattern-welded "damascus". Damascus is often used as an umbrella term for most any metal with a strong pattern. It can be mechanical or chemical. The first consists of forge welding steels with different carbon contents, twisting and folding them in order to produce a more or less homogeneous bar of steel with the same carbon content all the way through. When etched, the different types of steel show a different shade, depending on carbon content. This technology was indeed used by Celts, Vikings, and almost every other steel using culture on the planet. The second, wootz, is "crucible steel" or essentially cast steel first produced in India ~2000 years ago. The cooling cycle of molten steel was controlled to produce a very specific crystalline structure in the steel. The pattern comes from this chemical structure, not from the mechanical welding of different metals. It was completely homogeneous and very hard. Hope this helps, all of these points have been discussed many times on the forum and there are lots of threads on wootz and Indian weapons. Regards, Emanuel - Some pics from Oriental Arms - The top one is a wootz ingot The next two pictures are of wootz katar (jamadhar) and shamshir blades The bottom is of a pattern-welded yataghan blade with the "Turkish ribbon" pattern Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 17th December 2010 at 03:36 AM.

16th December 2010, 09:16 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Yup, tourist junk - I'd gladly take it off your hands, and even pay the shipping cost for a parcel from PR. Now seriously, all of the items appear to date back to at least the 19th century and to be of above average quality, and certainly meant for use within the culture. Defeinitely not souvenirs. You might want to try etching the blades as there is a high likelyhood that they may be made of wootz. I wish I did this well whenever I bought things, which I knew little about. Regards, Teodor

16th December 2010, 09:42 PM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	You pick up some very nice pieces. The khanjar is Persian the bichwa is mid to late 19th century and the katar is 1830-50 with nice koftgari blade is most likely wootz. Congrats

16th December 2010, 09:52 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Pretty trinkets indeed Manolo, wish I could stumble on such a group in my neck of the woods. Congrats on a very good find! Emanuel

17th December 2010, 12:38 AM	#5
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The persian blade might be wootz too. Most of them with such sculpted handle are. The katar koftagi seems a bit unusual. Would it be possible for you to show a closer view ?

17th December 2010, 04:06 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	When it comes to wootz like what is on the katar and khanjar/jambiya, I would send it to Philip Tom because he can polish it correctly and then etch it correctly.

17th December 2010, 06:51 AM	#13
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,625	Thanks for the pictures Manolo, To me the hilt material looks like walruss ivory from the close-ups, as I can see the inner dentine part in the middle of the hilt.

17th December 2010, 10:37 AM	#14
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Yes that is walrus ivory, which was the most usual material with this kinf of dagger.

17th December 2010, 08:32 PM	#16
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Yes the walrus is more than rare in Persia, but walrus ivory used to come Russia.

18th December 2010, 12:03 AM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	Walrus was traded all around the area from Russia. Ask Philip Tom who is still a member of this forum. He specializes in polishing and etching wootz properly.