Am I overly paranoid

TVV · 16th April 2005, 04:22 AM

Or is there something wrong with these items that recently closed on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1

To me they look to be everything but authentic, not even like decorative Qajar pieces, but more like modern day repros made in India. What makes me think so is the extremely crude engraving, the screws on the shield, and the flimsy aventail on the helmet. There are other details that do not seem right, but these are the most obvious.
Of course, I might be wrong, as I am by no means an expert, but I would like to hear your opinion. Obviously, to someone they were worth a lot.

Conogre · 16th April 2005, 05:07 AM

I'm a novice on older pieces (getting better though, due to the gift of a good book by a friend **grin**) and intentionally somewhat familiar with contemporary pieces of traditional style, with my impression being that they MAY be chinese reproductions of Indian pieces, primarily from the "feel" of the artwork.
The dagger, by the way struck me as odd with a very flat appearing inner blade and the "armor piercing tip" obviously welded on.....this doesn't appear to be a repair weld if you look very closely.
Then again, I undertand that Chinese smiths are not uncommon in parts of India , so I may well be off base here, but I agree that there do seem to be some strange inconsistancies.
Here's a few photos of some of my contemporary pieces for comparison.
I'll be curious to see what some of our more knowldegable members have to see as well.....if you're too paranoid, I'm in your club as well (and thrifty too! **grin**)
Mike
ps...the shipping was cheaper from Bombay! **BIG grin**

Tim Simmons · 16th April 2005, 10:36 AM

I do not really collect Indian arms,I would like to afford to,but I would not go for these.Tim

tom hyle · 16th April 2005, 02:01 PM

One thing you learn a lot from, but may not want to do if you're only into antiques is actually owning repros bought as repros for reasonable prices, because then you see what's around, and what the differences really are. But of course you only want to do that if you can afford it, and if like Conogre, you are going to enjoy the repros......
AFAIK, screws, though often raised as an objection, are common on European arms and armour starting in the 1600s, and possibly so early in India, as well; surely in the 1700s. Of course, such screws are hand made, and are only traditional in certain applications, usually (certainly to adjust the nasal bar of a helmet, for instance), so seeing modern screws or screws in wrong places can certainly be a tip off to repairs or modern manufacture. It's all so dang complicated; that's why we sometimes find ourselves only able to say "I know it when I see it"..............those auctions took too long to load for my impatient self; I didn't see it

Rick · 16th April 2005, 04:04 PM

My opinion would be that all three of these eBay pieces were made for the Western curio market . Most likely they were bought in the early 20thc. by Europeans or Americans taking the 'Grand Tour' .

The decoration on all three is below second rate .
The nasal guard on the helmet is not adjustable and was never meant to be .
The decoration on the three bladed dagger is positively atrocious .

As for Mike's pieces they seem to be of a much higher quality level, I find the picture contrast to be a little too high to properly view them for evaluation though ; Mike try the Gamma correction feature in your image program .

tom hyle · 16th April 2005, 04:39 PM

'Kay; I took a good look at the 3 blader. Definitely an arc/torch welded tip. Also, does it seem peculiar to anyone that the decoration looks Chinese; I hate to give advice to fakers other than to become honest cutlers......I got my Chinese mace; keep in mind I expected a repro. It's pretty decently solid, though the shaft may be cast (I can't decide) and the brass is fairly nice, but the eradication of the modern welds is likewise considerably less than total. It's a fun repro for my pleasure though; it's shaped like a hand; the ultimate b-slap! A real fun fire poker.....

tom hyle · 16th April 2005, 04:43 PM

I've heard of sellers saying things like, for instance "money back if a state museum says" etc. and either there's no such thing as a museum of the exact wording used, or it would have to be certified as a fake, rather than honest repro that accidentally got shuffled into the antique market, etc. Just saying; watch that fine print; it may not be as helpful as it seems.

capt.smash · 16th April 2005, 05:04 PM

I think the best policy is if in doubt dont bid,there are some nice items going though if you are prapared to look hard enough i won this indian axe today look at the cool pattern welding on the blade and cheeper than the "suspect"shield and helmet,i know what i would rather own

...although i do suspect the axe has had a new shaft at some stage the blade apears to be a gem.......well as far as the picture says i havent got it yet obviously

Conogre · 16th April 2005, 09:04 PM

A friend was over drooling over that axe while the auction was going on ...appreciation for damascus steel over the past couple of years has increased to the point that it nearly become an obsession, but even a non-afficionado would have to be impressed by this pattern.
I also doubt that the idea of it not being authentic ever arose .
VERY nice grab and congratulations.
Mike

capt.smash · 16th April 2005, 09:41 PM

Thanks conogre

TBH im surprised it didnt go for a higher price....imlooking forward to getting my hands on it

Conogre · 16th April 2005, 09:50 PM

I would too!
When it comes to "feel" in the hands I've always been partial to axes, heavy short swords, klewangs and other chopper/slashers as opposed to the more delicate thrusting swords and such.
If they are right about reincarnation then I was undoubtedly an axe wielding barbarian in some past incarnation who REALLY liked his job! **grin**
Your screen name seems VERY appropriate for such inclinations as well!
Mike

TVV · 18th April 2005, 04:27 AM

I have absolutely nothing against repros, if they are made well and if they are sold as such. It appears that this was not the case with the items I had suspicions for.
Tom, I had no idea about the screws and I would keep in mind that they may not necessarily designate a repro.

derek · 18th April 2005, 03:04 PM

TVV,
These three items you linked to look identical in every detail to items I found all over the Souks in the UAE. These were certainly made to sell to tourists (a few sellers admitted as much), although the work was pretty good.

16th April 2005, 04:22 AM	#1
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	Am I overly paranoid Or is there something wrong with these items that recently closed on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 To me they look to be everything but authentic, not even like decorative Qajar pieces, but more like modern day repros made in India. What makes me think so is the extremely crude engraving, the screws on the shield, and the flimsy aventail on the helmet. There are other details that do not seem right, but these are the most obvious. Of course, I might be wrong, as I am by no means an expert, but I would like to hear your opinion. Obviously, to someone they were worth a lot.

16th April 2005, 05:07 AM	#2
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I'm a novice on older pieces (getting better though, due to the gift of a good book by a friend grin) and intentionally somewhat familiar with contemporary pieces of traditional style, with my impression being that they MAY be chinese reproductions of Indian pieces, primarily from the "feel" of the artwork. The dagger, by the way struck me as odd with a very flat appearing inner blade and the "armor piercing tip" obviously welded on.....this doesn't appear to be a repair weld if you look very closely. Then again, I undertand that Chinese smiths are not uncommon in parts of India , so I may well be off base here, but I agree that there do seem to be some strange inconsistancies. Here's a few photos of some of my contemporary pieces for comparison. I'll be curious to see what some of our more knowldegable members have to see as well.....if you're too paranoid, I'm in your club as well (and thrifty too! grin) Mike ps...the shipping was cheaper from Bombay! BIG grin Attached Images Last edited by Conogre; 16th April 2005 at 05:17 AM.

16th April 2005, 05:04 PM	#8
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	I think the best policy is if in doubt dont bid,there are some nice items going though if you are prapared to look hard enough i won this indian axe today look at the cool pattern welding on the blade and cheeper than the "suspect"shield and helmet,i know what i would rather own ...although i do suspect the axe has had a new shaft at some stage the blade apears to be a gem.......well as far as the picture says i havent got it yet obviously Attached Images

16th April 2005, 10:36 AM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I do not really collect Indian arms,I would like to afford to,but I would not go for these.Tim

16th April 2005, 02:01 PM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	One thing you learn a lot from, but may not want to do if you're only into antiques is actually owning repros bought as repros for reasonable prices, because then you see what's around, and what the differences really are. But of course you only want to do that if you can afford it, and if like Conogre, you are going to enjoy the repros...... AFAIK, screws, though often raised as an objection, are common on European arms and armour starting in the 1600s, and possibly so early in India, as well; surely in the 1700s. Of course, such screws are hand made, and are only traditional in certain applications, usually (certainly to adjust the nasal bar of a helmet, for instance), so seeing modern screws or screws in wrong places can certainly be a tip off to repairs or modern manufacture. It's all so dang complicated; that's why we sometimes find ourselves only able to say "I know it when I see it"..............those auctions took too long to load for my impatient self; I didn't see it

16th April 2005, 04:04 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	My opinion would be that all three of these eBay pieces were made for the Western curio market . Most likely they were bought in the early 20thc. by Europeans or Americans taking the 'Grand Tour' . The decoration on all three is below second rate . The nasal guard on the helmet is not adjustable and was never meant to be . The decoration on the three bladed dagger is positively atrocious . As for Mike's pieces they seem to be of a much higher quality level, I find the picture contrast to be a little too high to properly view them for evaluation though ; Mike try the Gamma correction feature in your image program .

16th April 2005, 04:39 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	'Kay; I took a good look at the 3 blader. Definitely an arc/torch welded tip. Also, does it seem peculiar to anyone that the decoration looks Chinese; I hate to give advice to fakers other than to become honest cutlers......I got my Chinese mace; keep in mind I expected a repro. It's pretty decently solid, though the shaft may be cast (I can't decide) and the brass is fairly nice, but the eradication of the modern welds is likewise considerably less than total. It's a fun repro for my pleasure though; it's shaped like a hand; the ultimate b-slap! A real fun fire poker.....

16th April 2005, 04:43 PM	#7
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	I've heard of sellers saying things like, for instance "money back if a state museum says" etc. and either there's no such thing as a museum of the exact wording used, or it would have to be certified as a fake, rather than honest repro that accidentally got shuffled into the antique market, etc. Just saying; watch that fine print; it may not be as helpful as it seems.

16th April 2005, 09:04 PM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	A friend was over drooling over that axe while the auction was going on ...appreciation for damascus steel over the past couple of years has increased to the point that it nearly become an obsession, but even a non-afficionado would have to be impressed by this pattern. I also doubt that the idea of it not being authentic ever arose . VERY nice grab and congratulations. Mike

16th April 2005, 09:41 PM	#10
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Thanks conogre TBH im surprised it didnt go for a higher price....imlooking forward to getting my hands on it

16th April 2005, 09:50 PM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	I would too! When it comes to "feel" in the hands I've always been partial to axes, heavy short swords, klewangs and other chopper/slashers as opposed to the more delicate thrusting swords and such. If they are right about reincarnation then I was undoubtedly an axe wielding barbarian in some past incarnation who REALLY liked his job! grin Your screen name seems VERY appropriate for such inclinations as well! Mike

18th April 2005, 04:27 AM	#12
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,620	I have absolutely nothing against repros, if they are made well and if they are sold as such. It appears that this was not the case with the items I had suspicions for. Tom, I had no idea about the screws and I would keep in mind that they may not necessarily designate a repro.

18th April 2005, 03:04 PM	#13
derek Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 215	TVV, These three items you linked to look identical in every detail to items I found all over the Souks in the UAE. These were certainly made to sell to tourists (a few sellers admitted as much), although the work was pretty good.