Parrying Dagger Makers Mark

[dana_w]

Does anyone recognize the makers mark of this parrying dagger? I wish I could find a reasonably priced copy of the three volume edition of HEER DER NEUE STOCKEL, but I can't speak German anyway.

FYI: images Copyright © 2010-2012 Dana Williams, All Rights Reserved

[fernando]

That would be the Toledo inspection mark. Are those inscriptions in the blade. Can you show us close up pictures ?

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by fernando

That would be the Toledo inspection mark. Are those inscriptions in the blade. Can you show us close up pictures ?

Sure, but the inscriptions are hard to decipher. Here the first three are the front side, the next three are the back. I have higher resolutions photos, but it doesn't make much of a difference.

[fernando]

Perhaps having the blade in hands and burning your eyelashes for a while, you figure out the contents of the inscription ... a high probabilty to be the maker's name, as they often used to do.
Assuming you know the following charts ... which are a good inspiration.

HERE see post #152


... and this new one:

.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by fernando

Perhaps having the blade in hands and burning your eyelashes for a while, you figure out the contents of the inscription ... a high probabilty to be the maker's name, as they often used to do.
Assuming you know the following charts ... which are a good inspiration.

HERE see post #152


... and this new one:

.

Thanks Fernando, I had checked out your earlier post, but the PDF is useful. I just need to run it through Google's translator.

I will keep staring at the Dagger.

[cornelistromp]

der neue Stockel is about marks found on firearms, not on edged weapons.

I would recommend "1000 marks of European Blademakers"by Zygmunt S. lenkiewicz.

the city of toledo hallmark , because that's the OT mark, was often used in combination with another mark of one particular swordsmith.
because the Hallmarkstamp quickly weared, there are (at least)four different versions known of this OT mark.


beautiful dagger with a shell as parry plate, pommel and guard ends would be a very good match/dagger for a naval officer at the beginning of the 17th century.

SANT VACO INTSCONFISIC tells me Unfortunately nothing yet.

best,

[dana_w]

Thanks fernando and cornelistromp.

Someone told me that there was an edged weapon volume of der neue Stockel. Thanks for setting me straight.

I haven't found much info about the city of Toledo hallmark. Can one of you point me at something. The mark looks a lot like some of the maker marks fernando posted. I'll include another photo closeup photo.

After looking closely at the blade I have made a drawing of the marks on each side. They seem to be made up of a triangular stamp and lines.

[Jim McDougall]

This is a most attractive left hand dagger of 17th century form, obviously Spanish with the T stamp at forte which is as noted a compliance or acceptance type mark, I cannot recall what the OT means (memory slipping. These were of course usually en suite with a rapier so the rapier associated must have been a beauty! Spain and Italy were the last holdouts using the left hand dagger in fencing, but by the end days most were simple quillons and ring guard except for the Spanish who held more to traditional styles.
The shellguard is distinctly Spanish as well, and these cockleshells were seen on many Spanish sword hilts. As far as I have believed, these have more to do with the military orders, primarily that of Santiago de la Espada, the Order of St. James whose symbol was a sword and the shell (la venera).

The inscription in the fuller is typically an acrostic for some invocation or patriotic slogan it seems.

[dana_w]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This is a most attractive left hand dagger of 17th century form, obviously Spanish with the T stamp at forte which is as noted a compliance or acceptance type mark, I cannot recall what the OT means (memory slipping. These were of course usually en suite with a rapier so the rapier associated must have been a beauty! Spain and Italy were the last holdouts using the left hand dagger in fencing, but by the end days most were simple quillons and ring guard except for the Spanish who held more to traditional styles.
The shellguard is distinctly Spanish as well, and these cockleshells were seen on many Spanish sword hilts. As far as I have believed, these have more to do with the military orders, primarily that of Santiago de la Espada, the Order of St. James whose symbol was a sword and the shell (la venera).

The inscription in the fuller is typically an acrostic for some invocation or patriotic slogan it seems.

I am glad you like it. Here is another that is sitting on the desk

[fernando]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

... because that's the OT mark, was often used in combination with another mark of one particular swordsmith....

Sure thing Jasper but, less often they only used the To mark, with little variations on the estucheon design and, i guess, others would use the To mark with their own initials inside the same estucheon.

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The shellguard is distinctly Spanish as well, and these cockleshells were seen on many Spanish sword hilts. As far as I have believed, these have more to do with the military orders, primarily that of Santiago de la Espada, the Order of St. James whose symbol was a sword and the shell (la venera).

The inscription in the fuller is typically an acrostic for some invocation or patriotic slogan it seems.

Yes Jim, "Santiago" and the "vieira".
I beleive it may be also spelled "Santyago".

.

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks Nando, thats better to understand, rather than acrostics the same of Santiago, further supporting the cockleshell theme as presumably associated to the Order.
I get it now, the 'OT' is Toledo, reversed initials.

[cornelistromp]

@ Fernando and Jim, you did a really great Job, this is of course the right
track. SANTVAGO and the reverse side "IN TOLEDO"?!?
Indeed maybe the dagger of a member of the Portuguese Military Order of Saint James of the Sword/ Ordem Militar de Santiago da Espada 1172-1834.

The most prominent symbol of the pilgrimage to Santiago de Compostela is the scallop. It is used as the main ornament on all buildings along the Camino. The shell symbolizes the female genitals and is known as a symbol of birth or rebirth. (fe "The Birth of Venus" by Botticelli.)
It is a symbol of a pre-Christian fertility rite, which, like many pagan symbols and rites have been taken over by the Catholic Church.

There are a few stories where the scallop symbol of Santiago stands for/came from.
According to one legend, someone was brought back from the dead. Something Santiago and his pagan alter ego did several times. This time he saved a knight who was drowned in the sea. When he came back from the sea, he was covered with shells. Through this construction, the shell is still the symbol of pilgrimage.
The other symbol of Santiago is the sword cross, also known by his Christian name lagarto/lizard, associated with fertility and chastity.

From all these non-Christian symbols and myths Santiago and the pilgrimage arise. He is still the holy guardian who protects us from his horse. the pelgimage Journey stands for somebodies life/personal insight and Santiago will be the protector of this Journey.

best,

[fernando]

What a nice dissertation on the Santiago & Vieira issue, Jasper .
In my selfish universe i only use vieiras for food and my pilgrimage is done by car. Santiago de Compostela is only 200 Kms. away from my hometown.
Good work on the "IN TOLEDO" inscription, which qualifies you for half of the prize at solving tbhe riddle .

Dana, that other dagger of your yours is also a beauty. Perhaps you wish to start a new thread with it ?


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[dana_w]

You gentlemen are absolutely fantastic. I am really getting an education. The “Ordem Militar de Santiago da Espada” … !

I have a LARGE collection of relic daggers, both Spanish and French. Most of them were excavated in Florida, many by my father in the 1960s. They date from the last half of the 16th century or the early 17th century. Juan Ponce de León first landed here in 1513. The 500th anniversary in April of next year. Right now I am photographing a lot of the relic daggers and adding them to my web site.

I'd love to show them to you and hear your opinions / speculations. Should I create a new thread for each dagger?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by dana_w

... I'd love to show them to you and hear your opinions / speculations. ?...

We are waiting for that

Originally Posted by dana_w

... Should I create a new thread for each dagger? ...

Obviously;things will be more clear that way