Kris question to the knowledgeables

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi all,

While working with a Philippino Smith over the net on a contemporary project for a kris (don't crucify me ) I was told that the sides of the guard have meanings.
This is a detail of my old piece (in the sense of ancient)



and I would appreciate if you gentlemen could enlighten me on the meanings of what I call lattice work in the right and the left side of the flaring of the blade. I'm most curious to learn as I am aware they have meanings.

On the other hand, when the picture is reversed,



It appears to me that the right side has somehow the sape of an elephant? but also of the same type of basic shape a kukhri has.

Your detailed information would certainly teach me more things.

Also, is the origin of the Kris has been established? Indonesia or Philippines? Who influenced who? Is it essentially a Muslim sword?

Thank you all
Will retire for the night now.
Best regards,

Antonio

[MABAGANI]

Not sure if a shot wasn't taken at answering this because a search probably would have gone over the same questions regarding the Moro kris.
Here is a great history site.
http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/johor.htm

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

Not sure if a shot wasn't taken at answering this because a search probably would have gone over the same questions regarding the Moro kris.
Here is a great history site.
http://www.sabrizain.demon.co.uk/malaya/johor.htm

Very informative site, Mabagani, thanks.

But I'm confused: it doesn't really seem to answer any of Antonio's questions.

[MABAGANI]

As for the origins of the kris or precusor from keris to kris, I've written my opinions on previous threads. I put the link because Mindanao and Sulu royals trace their heritage to this region Johore, Melaka and Sumatra. The history site of Malaysia and Indonesia gives an overview during the 15th and 16th centuries and their connection and cause for migration from the Johore area to Brunei, Mindanao and Sulu. I'd still stand by my statements that the "archaic" kris changed from the keris during the reign of Sultan Kudrat and his father of Mindanao in the early to mid 17th century when the various sultanates unified in their struggle against foreign aggression and a symbolic form of the kris was created to indicate their relation to other Islamic Malay Sultanates. The kris transitions from dagger to sword when the Mindanao and Sulu sultanates continued to remain unconquered, therefore furthering the evolution from keris to kris. This would have been the same period when the major groups the Maranao, Maguindanao and Tausug showed their unification and made their forms of the kris yet kept their stylistic forms found in the trunk section which showed their specific point of origin. This is IMHO, search my threads again for references.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

As for the origins of the kris or precusor from keris to kris, I've written my opinions on previous threads. I put the link because Mindanao and Sulu royals trace their heritage to this region Johore, Melaka and Sumatra. The history site of Malaysia and Indonesia gives an overview during the 15th and 16th centuries and their connection and cause for migration from the Johore area to Brunei, Mindanao and Sulu. I'd still stand by my statements that the "archaic" kris changed from the keris during the reign of Sultan Kudrat and his father of Mindanao in the early to mid 17th century when the various sultanates unified in their struggle against foreign aggression and a symbolic form of the kris was created to indicate their relation to other Islamic Malay Sultanates. The kris transitions from dagger to sword when the Mindanao and Sulu sultanates continued to remain unconquered, therefore furthering the evolution from keris to kris. This would have been the same period when the major groups the Maranao, Maguindanao and Tausug showed their unification and made their forms of the kris yet kept their stylistic forms found in the trunk section which showed their specific point of origin. This is IMHO, search my threads again for references.

Thank you for the clarification. I've been a spectator in the various threads you've referenced, so I'm at least minimally aware of how this discussion has evolved.

I'm still a bit confused, and I've sent you a PM.

[Antonio Cejunior]

Hi Mabagani,

Thanks for the link and the rest.
I humbly think that information scattered on threads could be organized so as to better be acessed by everyone.
I wouldn't mind host it if necessary. The point is that my time is not that much concerning seeking all threads and reading them all at this point.

I also have received some pages from Cato's book.

Thanks

[MABAGANI]

Some of my writings regarding the timeline run contrary to the author cited but I've substantiated my statements in various threads.

[Mark]

Since no one seemed to be inclined to answer the basic question posed -- do the patterns on a kris have a particular meaning, and if so, what is it? -- I tried following Mabagani's suggestion to search past threads.

Unfortunately, so much has been written on this forum (and the old UBB forum) on kris that there are literally thousands of posts to wade through. I am pretty well trained in key-word searching (being a lawyer and all), but this is one bit of information that you can't easily zero in on with key word searching. I could not even find a thread specifically on the topic of these patterns, for instance.

Can't one of our numerous kris experts here take a minute to teach us ignorant ones?

Mark

PS: One thing that I remember being written by our Malay keris experts is that the pattern described as similar to that of a kukri may have had (at least in keris) a similar meaning -- i.e., that of the Shiva Linga or Shiva's Trident -- and that the little curl is indeed representative of an elephant's trunk. Perhaps a "keris guy" could comment on the similar features in the Moro kris?

[RhysMichael]

I do not have the answer but I did remember that Fredrico's site has the names in the major dialects. Perhaps these can send the search in the right direction. Those terms are here

http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html

[Pusaka]

This is something I am also very interested in. I have noticed that the number of projections on the elephant structure (gajah) varies between keris. I was wondering about the numerology involved. Has it got something to do with rank/class? For example look at this Gajah from an ebay keris a while back. I think its a good example.

[Pusaka]

The elephant and snake/dragon are connected with indra which shows us the keris Vedic origins. The Keris blade is described in terms of a snake in motion or a snake in meditation depending if it is straight or not. Note that the Keris also represent Heaven and earth. The keris also is/was given offerings to insure it held its power. The snake and elephant can also be seen on Tibetan Phurbas, ancient Indian daggers and Keris (note the Indian influence in all). Indera was the god worshiped by the ancient Warriors of India. The whole thing points towards a strong Indian influence in keris. Also note that the first Keris in Indonesia appeared with the coming of Indian rule.
The Keris has its origins in ancient India, it represents the mystically charged thunder bolt weapon held by Indera.

"Indra is the chief deity and the god of war and rain, the greatest concerns of the people at that time. He separated the heavens and the earth by defeating Vrtra, a snake-dragon representation of chaos and obstacles. Another Vedic myth describes his defeat of Vrtra using wind and a thunderbolt as his weapons, enabling the monsoon rains to end. Indra must be strengthened with the drink soma, provided by worshippers, to accomplish this task. "

http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduis...vedic_gods.htm

[nechesh]

I think that the reason no one wants to wade into this one is that frankly, no one really knows these answers for sure. We can certainly make a lot of guesses and who knows, they might be right, but much of this stuff is just lost information. There have been many in the more recent keris mysticism movement who will claim knowledge to the specific meaning of these parts and if you want you can take their word for it. If it has that symbolic meaning to them today then it is certainly true....for them. I have heard a number of things in regards to the "ron do", those curls on the top of the tail area and the greneng that follows behind it. One is that it is symbolic of writing and is an actual prayer. This seems to be harder to apply to the filings on Moro kris, especially later ones where these marks do not look all that much like writing to me. The figure common on the gandik side is most probably meant as an elephant, perhaps Ganesha, though of course, in Indo keris there are many variations that include Singo, Naga and human figures. Most of the Moro kris seem more elephant like, but i have an old Sulu piece that i would swear is a naga form.

[Pusaka]

I believe that left and right flanks of the keris represent order and chaos (elephant/indra and dragon/Vrtra) actually I have heard people referring to the structure opposite from the elephant as the dragon. What is interesting though is the specific numerology of these components.

[Pusaka]

Edited your photo to explain the idea

[Battara]

Now that I understand the question better (I think ) there are certainly talismanic properties to the animal heads, like the elephant that I have seen on many Tausug kris at the base, or like the one you posted which I would say is Maranao looking and more of an eagle. I also agree that there may be a Vedic/Indic origin for the elephant whose meaning goes might be traced back to the Majapahit era (and Indian trade). The eagle may also be similar, like symbolizing originally Garuda, although now perhaps more for the sea eagle in the Philippines. My speculations at present.

[MABAGANI]

Thanks keris "knowledgeables" for your insights, I asked on a previous thread for keris experts opinions on the relationships of the different Malay Sultanate keris.
The kris forms vary from elephant, snake, serpent, naga, dragon, crocodile, sarimanok, eagle, parrot and other birds, etc. all motifs specific or mythological.
Pusaka pointed out many of the early Indian/Hindu connections, which raises the question did the keris arrive in Mindanao and Sulu earlier than the Malay Muslim missionaries. A study of the language, beliefs and history show the Hindu culture in the Philippines centuries before Islam so why not the keris? Maybe some answers are in the study of the earlier culture and some more prior interrelated with the coming of Islam.
An example of the early Hindu connection show on the Maranao kris which resemble an elephant on one side vs. the serpent/bird and serpent, the Maranao were the last to convert to Islam and still held to many early beliefs.
I've seen the Sulu kris vary from naga to bird possibly also indicating they may have been made in different periods.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I believe that left and right flanks of the keris represent order and chaos (elephant/indra and dragon/Vrtra) actually I have heard people referring to the structure opposite from the elephant as the dragon. What is interesting though is the specific numerology of these components.

This is exactly what i mean. I don't believe you will find any basis for these ideas in any ancient writings and in all probability none of this was intented in the origin of the keris......However, like any system this does not make it invalid if it works for you within the context of the system. Many interesting ideas will no doubt come out of our silat friends on this subject, but we need to keep in mind that these ideas are relatively new and probably have nothing what-so-ever to do with the origins of the keris form. But if it works for you, run with it.

[Tim Simmons]

Whats that smell? Fantasy sorry

[Pusaka]

Indra holding two wavy blade daggers which will later be developed into the Keris we all know today. The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam

[MABAGANI]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

The Keris has its roots in Vedic India and has nothing to do with Islam

Although the roots come from an earlier period the kris sword has its origins with Islam. This partly explains why when the archaic kris formed there were variations in the trunk/naga/bird motif while there was uniformity in the sword shape as it transitions from keris to kris.

[Pusaka]

I totally disagree that the keris is an Islamic weapon. All the evidence points towards Vedic India and none of it points toward Islam. If it really was introduced into Indonesia with the coming of Islam then show us the proof of those statements. Show us the wavy blade weapon in its native country before it was introduced. Such wavy blade weapons existed in Vedic times in India and that’s where it came from.


People try and say that Silat is an Islamic Martial art too when it actually existed in Indonesia LONG before the coming of Islam as did the keris. I say the same if Silat is really an Islamic martial art then lets see it in its native country, dose it exist there, no. So what dose that tell you???

[Rick]

Pusaka , I believe that Mabagani is referring to the KRIS *sword* of the Muslim Philippines .

Here we spell the two forms differently .

[nechesh]

Pusaka, it would do you well to stop....breathe....read.....and comprehend what someone has said before you respond.
Mabagani is referring to the Moro KRIS, not the Indonesian KERIS, when he speaks of Islamic roots in it's development. I don't think anyone here would argue that the keris did not exist in pre-Islamic Indonesia.
The weapon which started this thread is a Moro KRIS. At this forum we tend to distinguish between this and it's Indonesian cousin through spelling differences. The Indonesian KERIS dagger and the Moro KRIS sword.
BTW, a wavy blade does not a keris make. The blades Indra holds in the pic you posted do not have the characteristics that make a blade a keris. Actually the first keris were, indeed, straight blades, so this pic really proves nothing.
I must confess, i really don't know enough about silat to be too sure of it's origins, but it has been my understanding that it is a relatively recent form. Can you show any ancient accounts to prove otherwise. I know plenty of modern Wiccans who like to think they are practicing the "old religion" when it is basically the invention of Gerald Gardner (also an avid keris collector) in the early 20thC. And Rosicrusions love to point to their ancient Egyptian heritage when their lodges probably developed out of 18thC mystical thinking and masonry. So do we have any real evidence that Silat is more than a couple of hundred years old?

[Federico]

Not much to add, I agree with Mabagani's points (whats new).

Though I would add, to add even more confusion to the mix (again whats new), there is a strong possibility that meaning has changed over time. Eg. when the keris first began to shift into the kris perhaps there was one meaning (eg. elephant and dragon), but in later kris perhaps the meaning has changed. Particularly since there are many forms of fretwork that are not dragon-esque or curly or etc...

[Pusaka]

I’m sorry If I misunderstood what was being said but I have to say that I have heard people say that the Indonesian Keris is an Islamic Weapon too, so I was eager to clear that up because I really don’t believe that.

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other. This is what my research has lead me to personally believe but I accept that lots has been lost over time. If anyone else has any other Idea about what it symbolically represents I would love to hear it.

[Pusaka]

Originally Posted by Federico

Not much to add, I agree with Mabagani's points (whats new).

Though I would add, to add even more confusion to the mix (again whats new), there is a strong possibility that meaning has changed over time. Eg. when the keris first began to shift into the kris perhaps there was one meaning (eg. elephant and dragon), but in later kris perhaps the meaning has changed. Particularly since there are many forms of fretwork that are not dragon-esque or curly or etc...

Yes its meaning has changed from what it was originally meant to convey but I was talking more about it original meaning. Actually I’m not sure changed is the correct word, I would say lost.

[MABAGANI]

No problem Pusaka, your insights regarding the keris are enlightening and help me with perspective.

We all know the martial arts originated with the homosapiens domination over the neanderthal or was that alien intervention too.lol

btw who practices any form of silat here? i for one.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by Pusaka

About Silat its not recent but If you want to discuss that I don’t think this is the correct place to do that. There are lots of Martial arts forums where you could do that, I think you may know of one

If you take everything into account you will now see that the Keris blade symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces, the creative and destructive, the Male and Female,
The blade waves back and forth between these two opposite poles a bit like a battle taking place one trying to overcome the other.

I just need to point out again Pusaka, that the original keris form is NOT the wavy blade of which you speak, but a straight one. In fact most keris are straight (perhaps 2 in 3), so this back and forth dualist explanation doesn't really fly.
I think that as long as you are tying the keris and it's origins in with silat then this a a very appropriate place to discuss the origins of silat. I personally think the keris is much older than silat and that forms of keris fighting that are taught in silat are relatively new. So i wonder if there is any written evidence (old manuals, mention in old texts, etc.) that can make the connection between silat and the keris in ancient times.

[MABAGANI]

Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by MABAGANI

Some Silat historians make the connection by citing ancient ruins with warrior carvings and fighting postures, also ancient tales about origins of combat forms. I'll have to read more carefully again for specifics about the keris and silat. Some of the carvings look like a straight edged weapons btw, early keris?

Well, i'd have to see the carvings. There certainly are a whole lote of straight edged weapons out there. Can you suggest a place to see photographs of these carvings or possibly post some?