Indian export of iron/steel

Jens Nordlunde · 20th January 2008, 04:03 PM

Allan, James & Gilmour, Brian: Persian Steel, The Tanavoli Collection. Oxford University Press, 2000.

(page 115 and 116). In the 17th century, both East Indian Company and the Dutch East Indian Company were involved in trading iron from the Kingdom of Golconda to south-east Asia, and sometimes to western India, from where it would have been traded still further west. …………Bronson has established that is 1682, Masulipatam and Pulicat, the chief Dutch factory on the southern Coromandel Coast, shipped a total of 144.34 English tons of iron and steel to Indonesia, of which 49.43 tons were Masulipatam steel. The previous year the two ports had shipped 158.51 tons, including 15.01 tons of Masulipatam steel, to the same destination. Bronson concludes that the annual production of iron in India cannor have been far below that of Europe.

This is a lot of iron/steel at the time, and we know that there were other export markets as well, plus what the Indians used themselves. If the export of iron/steel to SEA was equvilant to the European production, the total production of iron /steel in India must have been huge.

We know about Indian iron/steel export to Arabia, Africa and the Mediterranean in the second century AD, if not before, and there is reason to believe that the Indians also exported iron /steel to the SEA area in the early centuries.

But how about export to the north? We know that furnaces, for making wootz ingots, have been excavated in Khorasan, that they were in use in the 9th century, and that they did not have iron ore nor any wood in Khorasan, so they had to import it to be able to make the ingots, which they sold to the caravans passing on the Silk Road. It seems, however, to be unclear from where they got the iron ore, the wood, and maybe the clay.

Did Nepal or Kashmir have any iron ores, and were they enough to cover the need for weapons and tools, so they could export to Khorasan, or did it all come from India?

ariel · 20th January 2008, 05:10 PM

As per S. Srinivasan and S.Ranganathan "India's Legendary Wootz Steel: An Advanced Material of the Ancient World", Indian export of wootz ingots to Persia amounted to "tens of thousands per year". Taking into account that each ingot was sufficient for 2 long blades ( OK, let's be conservative: 1 at a minimum) that must have covered the entire Persian production of wootz blades and left quite a lot for resale for a very hefty profit.
Also, I am not aware of any evidence of wootz production in Khorasan, Isfaghan etc. Where does this info come from?

Jens Nordlunde · 20th January 2008, 06:21 PM

Hi Ariel,

Dr. Ann Feuerbach excavated in Merv/Marv and wrote about it. I think it is in the Persian Steel book, or it is in her PhD on a CD, which I don’t have. I have however written a number of PM’s with her, and there is not doubt, no iron ore, no wood, but the production was running. As I remember it, it did not say from when to when the production was running, but it was running in the 9th century. From where did the ore and the wood come??

VANDOO · 20th January 2008, 07:23 PM

A VERY INTERESTING PROBLEM

GENERALLY PRODUCTION OF ALL SORTS STARTS UP NEAR A GOOD SOURCE OF MATERIALS NOT IN AN AREA WHERE THERE ARE NO RESOURCES READILY AVAILABLE. SO THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A SOURCE NEARBY OF WOOD AND ORE? PERHAPS WHEN PRODUCTION ORIGINALLY STARTED THERE WERE PLENTY OF TREES AND A SMALL SOURCE OF ORE EITHER NATURAL OR PERHAPS A LARGE METEOR?. THESE WOULD HAVE BEEN USED UP IN THE DISTANT PAST AND SINCE THE BUSINESS WAS ESTABLISHED THERE AND TRADERS WERE ALREADY COMING THERE FOR STEEL THEY GOT THEM TO BRING IN THE MATERIALS TO CONTINUE MAKEING THE STEEL FOR TRADE? IF THEY HAD A BIG REPUTATION AS THE BEST STEEL /SWORDS BUILT UP AT THAT PLACE, PERHAPS THEY WOULD NOT HAVE WANTED TO MOVE TO A NEW LOCATION?

CONJECTURE MY SPECIALTY

PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL SOLVE THIS MYSTERY SOME DAY UNLESS THEY HAD A GENIE WORKING FOR THEM IN WHICH CASE WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th January 2008, 08:55 PM

As far as I know, Merv is in a desert - so not trees and no ore, the only important thing was the Silk Road.
I have always wondererd why they imported ore and wood, and not the finished ingots but this question will no doubt never be answered.

Jens Nordlunde · 20th January 2008, 09:30 PM

Ariel,

Got it, it is in Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking by Robert G. Hoyland and Brian Gilmour, 2006. Page 124.
When Ann first told me about it, I was wondering from where the ore and wood came, but never got around to ask her - so now I ask you, the ones who are supposed to know these things - form where did the ore and the wood come - and did they also import the clay???

ariel · 20th January 2008, 11:14 PM

More precisely, picture pages between PP.120-121.
Khorasan is a region, not city, between Iran, Afghanistan,old Transoxania, old Tokharistan and the city of Merv. Mostly, it was ruled by Bukhara and Samarkand in the Ferghana Valley. There are no known ( at least, to me) iron deposits. Iron got there from upper India, mostly Sindh. As to the wood: the geography of the region was irrevocably altered by the Mongols who conquered Khorezm ( Quarizm, Khorasan) in the 13th century : Gengiz-Khan flooded the city of Urgench and the course of River Oxus went aslant, to the Caspian, instead of Aral, Sea for ~300 years. This is why a good part of the area became a desert.
Legends to the Figs. in the Gilmoure's book clearly indicate sources: crucible steel ingot from Banbhore (Sindh), 8-9th centuries and Sri Lanka ( Salman), ~9th cen. The crucible steel sword from Nishapur (Fig.13) is attributed to Salman, Sri Lanka.
The only witnessed account of Central Asian production of wootz ( by Capt. Massalski) refers to Bukhara, and the Feuerbach's data were also collected at Merv. Fig. 19 in the same book, showing "Persian" miniature of ironworkers is of early Bukharan style. There is no, to my knowledge, a single eyewitnessed account of Persian wootz manufacture even though Persia was flooded with European military advisers. Uzbeks ( Bukhara, Khiva, Samarkand etc) were sworn enemies of Iran.
Together with the Indian data, it seems to me that Persians never made wootz; they just used imported ingots to make blades. That is why their production of wootz blades came to an abrupt halt after the Brits banned wootz manufacture in India in the 19th century ( allegedly to conserve forests, Al Gores that they were, but in reality to weaken competition with British imports). As to who used these blades? Also not Persians: most of Persian military was composed of Georgians, Armenians, Turks and Turkmen.
Ethnic Persians were administrators and artizans; they left fighting to mercenaries.

spiral · 21st January 2008, 10:50 AM

Great stuff jens! Fascinating!

Iron ore Coal & timber & the ability to use it has existed in Nepal for hundreds of years.

As for importing, I cant recall any definate facts in old texts but the Nepalese used to both trade prolificaly & also there Gurkhas would invade & take over & loot many countries including many parts of Northen India & Tibet so I am sure items from many areas where then hauled back to Nepal.

Today most steel in Nepal is imported from India, I dont know when this became standard practice but would imagine Victorean times is quite possible.

Spiral

Jens Nordlunde · 21st January 2008, 03:53 PM

On an old map I have found, from 1949, it seems as if iron is found to the east and to the south in India, but not to the weat and the north - things could of course have been different two hundred years earlier or so.

20th January 2008, 04:03 PM	#1
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Indian export of iron/steel Allan, James & Gilmour, Brian: Persian Steel, The Tanavoli Collection. Oxford University Press, 2000. (page 115 and 116). In the 17th century, both East Indian Company and the Dutch East Indian Company were involved in trading iron from the Kingdom of Golconda to south-east Asia, and sometimes to western India, from where it would have been traded still further west. …………Bronson has established that is 1682, Masulipatam and Pulicat, the chief Dutch factory on the southern Coromandel Coast, shipped a total of 144.34 English tons of iron and steel to Indonesia, of which 49.43 tons were Masulipatam steel. The previous year the two ports had shipped 158.51 tons, including 15.01 tons of Masulipatam steel, to the same destination. Bronson concludes that the annual production of iron in India cannor have been far below that of Europe. This is a lot of iron/steel at the time, and we know that there were other export markets as well, plus what the Indians used themselves. If the export of iron/steel to SEA was equvilant to the European production, the total production of iron /steel in India must have been huge. We know about Indian iron/steel export to Arabia, Africa and the Mediterranean in the second century AD, if not before, and there is reason to believe that the Indians also exported iron /steel to the SEA area in the early centuries. But how about export to the north? We know that furnaces, for making wootz ingots, have been excavated in Khorasan, that they were in use in the 9th century, and that they did not have iron ore nor any wood in Khorasan, so they had to import it to be able to make the ingots, which they sold to the caravans passing on the Silk Road. It seems, however, to be unclear from where they got the iron ore, the wood, and maybe the clay. Did Nepal or Kashmir have any iron ores, and were they enough to cover the need for weapons and tools, so they could export to Khorasan, or did it all come from India?

20th January 2008, 05:10 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	As per S. Srinivasan and S.Ranganathan "India's Legendary Wootz Steel: An Advanced Material of the Ancient World", Indian export of wootz ingots to Persia amounted to "tens of thousands per year". Taking into account that each ingot was sufficient for 2 long blades ( OK, let's be conservative: 1 at a minimum) that must have covered the entire Persian production of wootz blades and left quite a lot for resale for a very hefty profit. Also, I am not aware of any evidence of wootz production in Khorasan, Isfaghan etc. Where does this info come from?

20th January 2008, 06:21 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Ariel, Dr. Ann Feuerbach excavated in Merv/Marv and wrote about it. I think it is in the Persian Steel book, or it is in her PhD on a CD, which I don’t have. I have however written a number of PM’s with her, and there is not doubt, no iron ore, no wood, but the production was running. As I remember it, it did not say from when to when the production was running, but it was running in the 9th century. From where did the ore and the wood come??

20th January 2008, 07:23 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY INTERESTING PROBLEM GENERALLY PRODUCTION OF ALL SORTS STARTS UP NEAR A GOOD SOURCE OF MATERIALS NOT IN AN AREA WHERE THERE ARE NO RESOURCES READILY AVAILABLE. SO THERE MUST HAVE BEEN A SOURCE NEARBY OF WOOD AND ORE? PERHAPS WHEN PRODUCTION ORIGINALLY STARTED THERE WERE PLENTY OF TREES AND A SMALL SOURCE OF ORE EITHER NATURAL OR PERHAPS A LARGE METEOR?. THESE WOULD HAVE BEEN USED UP IN THE DISTANT PAST AND SINCE THE BUSINESS WAS ESTABLISHED THERE AND TRADERS WERE ALREADY COMING THERE FOR STEEL THEY GOT THEM TO BRING IN THE MATERIALS TO CONTINUE MAKEING THE STEEL FOR TRADE? IF THEY HAD A BIG REPUTATION AS THE BEST STEEL /SWORDS BUILT UP AT THAT PLACE, PERHAPS THEY WOULD NOT HAVE WANTED TO MOVE TO A NEW LOCATION? CONJECTURE MY SPECIALTY PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL SOLVE THIS MYSTERY SOME DAY UNLESS THEY HAD A GENIE WORKING FOR THEM IN WHICH CASE WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

20th January 2008, 08:55 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	As far as I know, Merv is in a desert - so not trees and no ore, the only important thing was the Silk Road. I have always wondererd why they imported ore and wood, and not the finished ingots but this question will no doubt never be answered.

20th January 2008, 09:30 PM	#6
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Ariel, Got it, it is in Medieval Islamic Swords and Swordmaking by Robert G. Hoyland and Brian Gilmour, 2006. Page 124. When Ann first told me about it, I was wondering from where the ore and wood came, but never got around to ask her - so now I ask you, the ones who are supposed to know these things - form where did the ore and the wood come - and did they also import the clay???

20th January 2008, 11:14 PM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	More precisely, picture pages between PP.120-121. Khorasan is a region, not city, between Iran, Afghanistan,old Transoxania, old Tokharistan and the city of Merv. Mostly, it was ruled by Bukhara and Samarkand in the Ferghana Valley. There are no known ( at least, to me) iron deposits. Iron got there from upper India, mostly Sindh. As to the wood: the geography of the region was irrevocably altered by the Mongols who conquered Khorezm ( Quarizm, Khorasan) in the 13th century : Gengiz-Khan flooded the city of Urgench and the course of River Oxus went aslant, to the Caspian, instead of Aral, Sea for ~300 years. This is why a good part of the area became a desert. Legends to the Figs. in the Gilmoure's book clearly indicate sources: crucible steel ingot from Banbhore (Sindh), 8-9th centuries and Sri Lanka ( Salman), ~9th cen. The crucible steel sword from Nishapur (Fig.13) is attributed to Salman, Sri Lanka. The only witnessed account of Central Asian production of wootz ( by Capt. Massalski) refers to Bukhara, and the Feuerbach's data were also collected at Merv. Fig. 19 in the same book, showing "Persian" miniature of ironworkers is of early Bukharan style. There is no, to my knowledge, a single eyewitnessed account of Persian wootz manufacture even though Persia was flooded with European military advisers. Uzbeks ( Bukhara, Khiva, Samarkand etc) were sworn enemies of Iran. Together with the Indian data, it seems to me that Persians never made wootz; they just used imported ingots to make blades. That is why their production of wootz blades came to an abrupt halt after the Brits banned wootz manufacture in India in the 19th century ( allegedly to conserve forests, Al Gores that they were, but in reality to weaken competition with British imports). As to who used these blades? Also not Persians: most of Persian military was composed of Georgians, Armenians, Turks and Turkmen. Ethnic Persians were administrators and artizans; they left fighting to mercenaries.

21st January 2008, 10:50 AM	#8
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Great stuff jens! Fascinating! Iron ore Coal & timber & the ability to use it has existed in Nepal for hundreds of years. As for importing, I cant recall any definate facts in old texts but the Nepalese used to both trade prolificaly & also there Gurkhas would invade & take over & loot many countries including many parts of Northen India & Tibet so I am sure items from many areas where then hauled back to Nepal. Today most steel in Nepal is imported from India, I dont know when this became standard practice but would imagine Victorean times is quite possible. Spiral

21st January 2008, 03:53 PM	#9
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	On an old map I have found, from 1949, it seems as if iron is found to the east and to the south in India, but not to the weat and the north - things could of course have been different two hundred years earlier or so.