Kris/Kalis with straight blade

[kronckew]

Just ended on epray. it wanted to come home with me, so it is.

56cm. straight blade, 69 cm. LOA scabbard looks like it is newer or repaired. looks like some minor fraying of the grip wraps.

why is the silver piece near the end only part way round & it appears tied to the grip wrap thru holes in the silver piece? is it something to do with the baca-bacas that are external to the bolster & under the wrapping?

shading/patina seems to indicate it may have an inserted or hardened edge and a different core, will try to etch it a bit justincase.

[Rick]

Looks like a nice old fighting blade .
The silver band/collar (it's a style) near the pommel is traditionally secured with a thick wire .
The stirrup straps would originally been inserted under the ferrule I'm thinking, then the rest would be hidden and secured under the wrapping .
If the gonjo has been replaced it is a good job .
The leather wrap on the hilt is a bit incongruous, not really suited to a wet jungle/salty ocean environment .

Sulu ??

[VANDOO]

A NICE SOLID LOOKING KRIS, PERHAPS TIGHT ENOUGH TO DO A LITTLE LIGHT CUTTING . HOW IS THE BALANCE AND FEEL WHEN IN HAND?

[kronckew]

i'll let you know when it arrives it hasn't been teleported yet. only won it last night. (pics are from ebay)

i've seen a few kris here on the forum that have the baca-bacas over the bolster then under the wrap, sometimes exposed in bands. i gather it's not all that unusual from some other stuff i've read.

the wrap does look like square cut leather thonging, i'll check it on arrival. is it possible it could have been replaced with leather by a western owner? looks like they did a good job tho.

[CharlesS]

Looks like a nice blade here with an old scabbard. The scabbard mounts appear new as does the leather wrap to the hilt. The silver ring to the pommel is typical to Moro hilts from the Maguindanao, Maranao, and occasionally elsewhere. It would originally have been tied together with wire. The scabbard suggests the same origins.

The most curious thing I find here is the color of the ganja. It seems quite different in color to the blade, and I am wondering if it is a silver or alloy ganja. If so it would be quite unique!

Looking forward to finding out more.

[Roland_M]

"I am wondering if it is a silver or alloy ganja."


It would be a little difficult, to connect silver and steel. I know of two techniques, laser welding or hard soldering.

If someone is looking for Moro swords, here is my favorite auction site: (removed; no commercial links please)
Search for "*kris", including the After Sale, they have three Moro swords for sale.

[kronckew]

i thought the ganja was NOT connected & they were seperate pieces just held together in a press fit, the baca-bacas holding everything together.

from frederico's moro swords site:
=====================
Again, like their Malay cousin the antique Moro kris blade consisted of two parts, that of the blade proper and the seperate gangya (guard). On Kris made before the late 19th century this seperate gangya was evident by a straight line parallel to the guard, however at some point in the late 19th century the line went to a sharp angle when nearing the outer end of the guard. After the 1930s the seperate gangya dissappeared and the blades were made in one piece. On some modern kris there is an engraved line to symbolize the gangya but on many there is no de-marcation of any kind.
...
Now the blade was ready to be merged with the handle. Some have thought that the baca-baca (clamps) served to secure the blade to the handle. While partially true in the sense that they do give support, the primary purpose of the baca-baca was to insure the mating of the ganya and the blade. It is possible that this was important as to make sure that the Jen (spirit) that inhabited the blade and gave it its superior abilities would not escape. The primary means of securing the blade to the handle was through natural resin.
===================

...and thus the ganja could be just about any metal. as noted earlier it does match the rest of the blade and is finely fitted, the patina is quite different tho. maybe it was cleaned differently when the hilt was refitted and re-wrapped?

[Rick]

Yes, they are seperate pieces .
Except when they're not; sometimes it is just a scribed line of demarcation .
A really well fitted ganja may be very hard to spot .

I have a feeling the kris under discussion was refurbished outside of its native culture .
Example of the stirrup strap running under the ferrule .

[kronckew]

on a technical engineering note, bonding dissimilar metals is an art. many of the newer USCG cutter classes (now getting a bit long in the tooth) started off with steel decks and hulls with aluminum superstuctures to save weight & add to stability. they were joined at the main deck with a lap joint with a synthetic rubber gasket, all bolted together. this made a perfect galvanic cell & the join rotted out very quickly. they discovered a trick to join them. explosive welding. they made a joint of steel on one side, aluminum on the other by exploding them together. the sides away from the joint could then be welded with normal steel and aluminum welding techiniques. the bond was so intimate it did not set up a galvanic cell.

japanese smiths have been hammer welding dissimilar metals in layers for artistic weapons fittings for centuries. the hammering taking the place of explosives.

[David]

From what i can see this is most probably an old kris that was refurbished outside of the culture. As Rick has pointed out, the stirrup straps should run under the ferrule and i don't think i have ever seen such thickness in the straps as these. Rick also mentions the leather wrap which i have never seen used on these weapons. The hilt, the ferrule and the band near the pommel all look original, but it looks like someone had them off, fixed up and re-attached. The bands on the sheath look new and not in a Moro style.
As for the gangya, yes Wayne, it is separate, but traditionally the gangya is made from the same billet that the blade is formed from so it is rather unusual for it to be made of a different metal mix. I don't think this is just a matter of more aggressive cleaning on the gangya, this looks like a different metal mix. Given the over all refurbishing of the rest of this piece i think it is likely that this is a later replacement for a missing or broken gangya.

[kronckew]

hi rick,

a few over the bolster baca-baca from past forum posts here:
i would think if you are rerplacing them, it'd be easier to install new baca-baca this way rather than disassembling and possibly breaking a grip assembly that is resined in.

[kronckew]

looking thru the old stuff here, found the attached sundangs with an asang/baca that is not attached to the grip at all, strengthening frederico's assertion they are there to hold the ganja onto the blade and not the blade to the grip.

[kronckew]

'nother grip with the baca/asang outside the wrap. from off-forum. found another on the malay world ref. site we list.

if feasible, i may re-wrap the grip with some black braided cord i have to replace the leather. those shiny brass scabbard bands look out of place too.

would someone trying to heat the tang to melt the resin possibly discolour the ganja a bit?

[Roland_M]

I understand, i thought, the stirrups are to weak to hold the blade and made just for decoration. Some kalis swords with separate gangya have only one stirrup and i am quite sure, this is not enough to hold the blade safely in combat.

[David]

Originally Posted by kronckew

looking thru the old stuff here, found the attached sundangs with an asang/baca that is not attached to the grip at all, strengthening frederico's assertion they are there to hold the ganja onto the blade and not the blade to the grip.

Wayne, these blades that you have posted on this post are NOT Moro blades. They are modern creations out of Jawa that mimic the Moro (i am not sure i would even call them Indonesian sundangs. They are more like modern repos in my estimate). The reason the asang-asang do not attach to the hilt in these cases is either because they didn't know any better when they were producing these or they found it too much trouble or too difficult to do it the right way. The asang-asang is most definitely intended to hold the hilt to the blade.
You have certain have made you case for asang-asang that travel over the ferrule on traditional Moro blades. However, do note that in each of the examples you posted the strap is fairly flush with the ferrule. On your example this is not the case so i would still stand by my suggestion that this was probably done outside the culture by a non-Moro, especially when you consider the out of place leather wrap. I believe your parts are mostly genuine (hilt, pommel band, ferrule, blade, sheath), but that the refurbishing was done somewhere else in a somewhat untraditional manner.

[Sajen]

Agree with all what David explained very well.

[kronckew]

OK, accepted. just wanted to play devil's advocate & eliminate any confusion. too bad we may never know who 'repaired it or where. one of the evils of ebay is lack of provenance from dealers who have no real interest in the items they flog. anyhow, it was relatively cheap. (those shiny brass scabbard bands really do irritate me and will disappear, the leather less so, but...they too shall pass) maybe rattan on the scabbard and black heavy string on the grip? do they wax it or lacquer it?

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by kronckew

OK, accepted. just wanted to play devil's advocate & eliminate any confusion. too bad we may never know who 'repaired it or where. one of the evils of ebay is lack of provinance from dealers who have no real interest in the items they flog. anyhow, it was relatively cheap. (those shiney brass scabbard bands really do irritate me and will disappear, the leather less so, but...they too shall pass) maybe rattan on the scabdard and black heavy string on the grip? do they wax it or laquer it?

Don't be disappointed Wayne, I think this kris is very nice and can be easily restored. The gangya from different metal is very nice and unique. Simple brass bands at the scabbard will let look it much better. The leather can be replaced by natural fibre and the upper silver band can be easily attached with silver wire. The kris will look much better and like original.

Regards,
Detlef

[kronckew]

thanks, plain brass bands would be OK, especially after they oxidize a bit. it is the corrugated ones that look odd. it already has one rattan turks head, which may have been original or added after the brass - ? i know how to make those steve ferguson wrote us a nice instruction i have book marked here.

anyhow i've ordered some dark brown 3mm braided natural cord for the grip & i have some silver craft wire already handy too. i'll see what it look like after the leather disappears & see if the baca-baca can be fitted better - or at worst covered up. should hopefully arrive tomorrow so i can start planning after seeing the reality.

[Battara]

Actually there are many Maguindanao (and even some some Maranao) kris that have Baka-Baka clamps with connection straps on the outside of the hilts instead of the inside.

[Battara]

I also wonder if the Ganga is made of a different steel or perhaps a different metal altogether.

I also suspect that the scabbard bands that are not plain are more recent replacements (along with the leather wrap).

[Rick]

Maybe try wire; can you get silver ?
This pattern would look good with twine lacquered too .
Ashley's Book of Knots maybe ?

[kronckew]

it arrived a n hour or so ago. the brass bands slid off fairly easily. odd - they had a layer of newspaper under them - i guess to tighten them a bit. the odd turks head band is not leather, it's rattan. kris weighs 668 grams w/o the scabbard. feels very good in the hand. well balance and not tip heavy.

the pommel piece was dangling loosely by a thread of leather, so i replaced it with a bit of twisted silver wire. it is silver plated brass sheet metal.

the baca baca are firmly attached to the hilt, which is firmly attached to the blade. the baca baca are a bit loose on the blade and can move towards the centre a bit if i press on the sides along the bolster. might fix that when i re-wrap.

the ganja is definitely different metal. the blade is by comparison grey and the ganja looks quite like silver in comparison. it was a bit grungy so i cleaned it with a rag & some soap & hot water, rinsed, dried. the baca-baca also looks like they are silver. some hammer dent marks where the baca were fitted to the ganja do not expose any base metal, so they are not plated.

- newsflash. they are NOT aluminum and neither is the ganja, which has some black tarnish. i think they are in fact silver. the ganja and the baca are not magnetic!

took pics attached, oiled it.

cleaned & oiled the wood scabbard & added a trio of quick temp. turks heads in black cord to tide me over till i can organise a brass band or three. may add a fourth in a few min. nearer the end than the old one. took some pics with my mobile phone. and added that last band below the old rattan one. i can see what looks like a 'hamon around the edges of the blade which is slightly darker in the middle. there appears to be a small forging flaw on one side.

edited:
STOP THE PRESSES! - did a chemical test on the baca baca and the ganja - they are SILVER!

[kronckew]

did a forum search, seems batarra had a kris with a silver ganja, and spunjer stated he'd likely never see one again! well... here you go.

[David]

Wayne, i can only speak for myself, of course, but i certainly wasn't implying that just because some of these renovations may have been done outside the Philippines that you should have to now change them. Personally i probably would have left the bands on the sheath alone (well, maybe not the crimped one ), but unless i thought i could really improve the look of the thing i would probably leave it alone. I personally wasn't pointing out the renovations as a "bad" thing, just trying to establish what was what in that process.
I suspected the possibility of the silver gangya (and asang-asang). I have seen this before, but can't recall where. Congrats on that, a good score. I seriously doubt this was a Western renovation, though it may not have been the original.
On the pommel band, i think you might want to push that more towards the pommels that the top of the leather wrap is covered.

[kai]

Hello Wayne,

the pommel piece was dangling loosely by a thread of leather, so i replaced it with a bit of twisted silver wire. it is silver plated brass sheet metal.

I believe this needs to close a bit more (after removing the leather).

the baca baca are firmly attached to the hilt, which is firmly attached to the blade. the baca baca are a bit loose on the blade and can move towards the centre a bit if i press on the sides along the bolster. might fix that when i re-wrap.

Some play of the clamps is not unusual - no need to go at great lengths unless you plan to hit a lot of tough objects with the sword...

the ganja is definitely different metal. the blade is by comparison grey and the ganja looks quite like silver in comparison. it was a bit grungy so i cleaned it with a rag & some soap & hot water, rinsed, dried.

Real silver is a great catch! I have seen a very few kris with a non-iron gangya like this that appeared to be made from brass. One more made from silver; and one suassa?

the baca-baca also looks like they are silver. some hammer dent marks where the baca were fitted to the ganja do not expose any base metal, so they are not plated.

Are the strips soldered to the clamps? If so, I'd posit this attachment mode to be fairly recent (and non-traditional) - probably being done when doing that leather wrap.

Please post close-ups when you disassemble the hilt! (I'd suggest to cut those strips and replace them with thinner silver bands which could probably run inside of the ferrule. IMHO this would look much neater.)

Regards,
Kai

[kronckew]

the main crinkled scabbard band had to go, it was almost professionally crinkled/scalloped. the other one was also crinkled. looks like whoever did it used a needle nosed pliers to bend/fan it it may be salvageable. the other circumferentially grooved one just looked odd with the others gone. i almost left it. i'll make ome plain brass ones & reuse the grooved one. gives me something to do

i figured out the pommel piece needed to be back further after the photos. i've reposition it. will finalise it when i re-wrap.

i want to do the minimal amt. to the hilt, will likely leave the clamps as they are. they are NOT soldered by the way. the grip strip pieces are bent at the bolster end into an L shape and the end inserted between the baca baca and the ganja, flush with it and not protruding beyond the baca.

will decide more when the leather comes off. Primum non nocere.

[kai]

Hello Wayne & Rick,

Maybe try wire; can you get silver ?
This pattern would look good with twine lacquered too .
Ashley's Book of Knots maybe ?

A good silver wire wrap is not that easy to do; I'd prefer braided twine (try to get a grip on the typical Moro braiding) and cover it with cutler's resin when finished. (Easier to do and should also look better between those 2 silver bands.)

Regards,
Kai

[Battara]

Actually Kai some baca- baca were soldered to the strips on Magindanao pieces.

I agree with taking some of those bands off, like the scalloped one. And yes I have a kris once belonging to Datu Piang that has a solid silver Proposal: would it be helpful to get the letter on hospital letter head and FedEx'd to the place?Ganga.

[DaveS]

In my collection somewhere i have an old twist-core that has a copper gangya. In general though i think blades with a different type of metal in the gangya have to be fairly rare........Dave.