Mystery Dagger???

David · 3rd July 2016, 06:47 PM

A friend of mine recently asked be about this dagger, which he thought was from the South Pacific. It looks more African to me, but not quite and i just don't know. The blade is ferric as it attracts a magnet. Any ideas out there?

Rick · 3rd July 2016, 07:05 PM

It looks like a recycled spearhead and the spear part doesn't say 'Africa' when I look at it.
I'll bet that there are two cultures represented here, possibly even American folk art for the hilt.

Better pictures....etc.

David · 3rd July 2016, 07:33 PM

Well, it's not mine Rick, so these are the best photos i have. I do think that a mixed cultural thing is possible. The hilt does seem to have a good patina so this does appear to have a bit of age to it. The wrap looks more recent, bit the rest looks pre-WWII to me.

David · 4th July 2016, 05:24 PM

Any other ideas or comments on origin from anyone i could take back to my friend?

mariusgmioc · 4th July 2016, 06:04 PM

Hello David,

As I am no expert, I refrained myself from making any comments, but the moment I saw this "dagger" I thought that it looks like a spear tip with a handle attached.

fernando · 4th July 2016, 06:54 PM

Highly plausible

.

colin henshaw · 4th July 2016, 07:41 PM

Probably a red herring, but the carved head is a bit like Inuit work and the twine binding is the sort of thing a sailor might do. Maybe a hunter/trapper's weapon, or a whaler's ??

kahnjar1 · 4th July 2016, 09:29 PM

I have absolutely no idea about this , but from the pics it LOOKS as if the guy is wearing a peaked cap, but without a side view it is hard to tell.......
Stu

ariel · 5th July 2016, 05:56 AM

I have the same impression. Weren't there similar handles from Luzon?

DaveA · 5th July 2016, 09:51 PM

The figure on the hilt resembles carvings of "Bulul", the rice God of the Ifugao tribe on Luzon. These sometimes ornament Ifugao daggers. I have not seen this particular hilt style used by Ifugao, with the wrapping.

Maybe this is a lead for you. Good luck, and please post any new information you find!

Dave A

David · 6th July 2016, 12:19 AM

So i hear a few votes for Luzon, at least on the hilt. Can anyone point to a Luzon spear head of similar form? I'm just trying to pin this down to a particular region for my friend.
The wrapping could have been added at anytime and certainly seems like the youngest addition to the ensemble.

Ian · 8th July 2016, 07:34 AM

While the Bulul (northern Luzon) suggestion is an interesting one, the head of the figure is less well defined than the vast majority of examples i have seen, especially in regard to the ears (which appear absent on the figure of the dagger in question). Bulul is often portrayed with very prominent ears (but not always).

Neither the grip nor the blade are obviously Ifugao work, so I'm skeptical of this origin. That said, I don't have a better suggestion.

Ian.

Sajen · 8th July 2016, 08:21 PM

Hello David,

when I first have seen this unusual dagger was my impression similar to DaveA ones but again similar considerations like Ian seems to have I don't post my impression. Another resemblance I see also with Ano Deo figures from Timor, but again, something bothers me. I am unsure but could be indeed coming from SEA.

Regards,
Detlef

Sajen · 9th July 2016, 02:50 PM

Here a picture from The Met but this are from Flores instead of Timor.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th July 2016, 07:42 AM

Or....going back to Bulul carvings...I seem to see a very large ear on #1 ...but need a side shot please... It would seem natural that such huge ears would wear smooth over time...(Oh Grandma what big ears you've got.)

Ian · 12th July 2016, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I have absolutely no idea about this , but from the pics it LOOKS as if the guy is wearing a peaked cap, but without a side view it is hard to tell.......
Stu

Stu:

That is a very astute observation and I think you are correct. This rang a bell for me. I now think that the hilt is indeed northern Luzon in origin -- not Ifugao, but rather Ilocano. There is a style of Ilocano knife featuring a Filipino with a peaked cap, presumably military. Such pommels can be found in brass, horn, or wood--the horn ones often have small white inserts for the eyes. There should be pictures on this site. I have several examples but they are all packed as a result of a recent move across country.

Some Ilocano knives are double edged daggers, but I agree that this one looks as though it could have started life as a spear. The wrapped hilt does look recent to me also.

Jose, do you have a picture of one of these Ilocano hilts that you could post?

Ian.

P.S. In a previous post, these caps were thought to be nautical in origin. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=418

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th July 2016, 07:26 AM

Please Note~ ... the kinnallogong or hat dance (Ilocano)

colin henshaw · 13th July 2016, 07:53 AM

How about these two carved Inuit figures (in ivory) ? Note the similarity to the style of the heads...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 13th July 2016, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

How about these two carved Inuit figures (in ivory) ? Note the similarity to the style of the heads...

Nice one Colin !

5th July 2016, 09:51 PM	#10
DaveA Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wisconsin, USA Posts: 413	Bulul figure? The figure on the hilt resembles carvings of "Bulul", the rice God of the Ifugao tribe on Luzon. These sometimes ornament Ifugao daggers. I have not seen this particular hilt style used by Ifugao, with the wrapping. Maybe this is a lead for you. Good luck, and please post any new information you find! Dave A

9th July 2016, 02:50 PM	#14
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Here a picture from The Met but this are from Flores instead of Timor. Attached Images

11th July 2016, 07:42 AM	#15
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Or....going back to Bulul carvings...I seem to see a very large ear on #1 ...but need a side shot please... It would seem natural that such huge ears would wear smooth over time...(Oh Grandma what big ears you've got.) Attached Images

13th July 2016, 07:53 AM	#18
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	How about these two carved Inuit figures (in ivory) ? Note the similarity to the style of the heads... Attached Images

3rd July 2016, 06:47 PM	#1
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Mystery Dagger??? A friend of mine recently asked be about this dagger, which he thought was from the South Pacific. It looks more African to me, but not quite and i just don't know. The blade is ferric as it attracts a magnet. Any ideas out there? Attached Images

3rd July 2016, 07:05 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	It looks like a recycled spearhead and the spear part doesn't say 'Africa' when I look at it. I'll bet that there are two cultures represented here, possibly even American folk art for the hilt. Better pictures....etc.

3rd July 2016, 07:33 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Well, it's not mine Rick, so these are the best photos i have. I do think that a mixed cultural thing is possible. The hilt does seem to have a good patina so this does appear to have a bit of age to it. The wrap looks more recent, bit the rest looks pre-WWII to me.

4th July 2016, 05:24 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	Any other ideas or comments on origin from anyone i could take back to my friend?

4th July 2016, 06:04 PM	#5
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Hello David, As I am no expert, I refrained myself from making any comments, but the moment I saw this "dagger" I thought that it looks like a spear tip with a handle attached.

4th July 2016, 06:54 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Highly plausible .

4th July 2016, 07:41 PM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Probably a red herring, but the carved head is a bit like Inuit work and the twine binding is the sort of thing a sailor might do. Maybe a hunter/trapper's weapon, or a whaler's ??

4th July 2016, 09:29 PM	#8
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	I have absolutely no idea about this , but from the pics it LOOKS as if the guy is wearing a peaked cap, but without a side view it is hard to tell....... Stu

5th July 2016, 05:56 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I have the same impression. Weren't there similar handles from Luzon?

6th July 2016, 12:19 AM	#11
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,124	So i hear a few votes for Luzon, at least on the hilt. Can anyone point to a Luzon spear head of similar form? I'm just trying to pin this down to a particular region for my friend. The wrapping could have been added at anytime and certainly seems like the youngest addition to the ensemble.

8th July 2016, 07:34 AM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	While the Bulul (northern Luzon) suggestion is an interesting one, the head of the figure is less well defined than the vast majority of examples i have seen, especially in regard to the ears (which appear absent on the figure of the dagger in question). Bulul is often portrayed with very prominent ears (but not always). Neither the grip nor the blade are obviously Ifugao work, so I'm skeptical of this origin. That said, I don't have a better suggestion. Ian.

8th July 2016, 08:21 PM	#13
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,781	Hello David, when I first have seen this unusual dagger was my impression similar to DaveA ones but again similar considerations like Ian seems to have I don't post my impression. Another resemblance I see also with Ano Deo figures from Timor, but again, something bothers me. I am unsure but could be indeed coming from SEA. Regards, Detlef

13th July 2016, 07:26 AM	#17
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Please Note~ ... the kinnallogong or hat dance (Ilocano)