Percussion pistol with interesting associations

Shakethetrees · 20th September 2014, 06:55 AM

I got this years ago through a Chinese woman whose father had some connection to a complex of antiques warehouses in Tianjin.

Evidently, this is where antiques and other "bourgeois" possessions were hauled off to when they were confiscated after the 1949 revolution, the Cultural Revolution, and other times of ideological turmoil.

She and her husband came to the US selling these odds and ends several times roughly twenty years ago.

The story I got was that this pistol was picked up after the Tian An Men demonstrations. Her story loosely confirmed those of two students I knew from BeiDa who were present in the square the night everything hit the fan. One of them was seriously injured and hauled to the hospital on one of the ubiquitous three wheeled bicycles then common throughout China.

Without getting into the extreme details, as horrible and violent as that night was, the story is much more complicated than we got from the news media.

In a nutshell, the students unveiling of the Goddess of Liberty statue was the spark that lit the fire. The PLA came in and with a heavy hand, cleaned out the square. We all know this. But what we didn't hear was that hundreds, if not about a thousand regular Chinese people came out with the intention of fighting the PLA and police. The people were armed with whatever they could get, from agricultural implements to kitchen gadgets, and whatever else they could find. This pistol was apparently part of that. For powder they used ordinary firecracker powder, the whitish residue remains on the hammer and around the nipple. Match heads were used as caps.

In the intervening years, a lot of this residue has rusted off, but I felt it was important at the time not to disturb it.

The pistol itself shows evidence of old repairs, the side plate is set up to engage a belt hook. I suspect it is a model from a European navy that somehow got away during the 19th century and remained in China.

It's of a small caliber, and has a short grip.

Normally I'm skeptical of stories, but since I got it years after I heard the "insiders" story of the night on the square, I had to get it.

This is the first time I have showed it. It's been in storage for about ten years and just surfaced during my move.

Comments welcome.

For the moderators: I agonized over whether it belongs in the ethno or European forum. Since it's last use was Asian, I opted for the former.

estcrh · 20th September 2014, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shakethetrees

several burned bodies of PLA soldiers or police were hung from a bridge a la Falaja, Iraq.

I am confused, I thought this happened in China?

Shakethetrees · 20th September 2014, 02:37 PM

Yes, the PLA/police were hung from the bridge in Beijing in the manner that the contractors were strung up in Faluja, Iraq.

The Faluja image is probably more familiar to us. That's why I brought it into the post.

Jim McDougall · 20th September 2014, 05:31 PM

It is always exciting to see items with interesting provenance, and as this is indeed a European percussion pistol the fact that it ended up in China of course immediately sends thought to Boxer rebellion. Naturally that is considerably later than the probable 1840s period for this, however many earlier weapons ended up there with various contingents among the number of foreign legations represented.
I can recall a British heavy cavalry disc hilt (M1796) found among the arms of Chinese forces, but that may have been of the volume of surplus items dispersed in the mid 19th century.

I don't have much in resources on pistols, but my inclination is this is probably French (or perhaps Liege production?) and as well observed, likely a naval belt pistol.

I think the 'ethnographic' venue was a good call in subjective view in consideration of circumstances, however for identification purposes, it is best to go with objective detail better found on European venue.

On that note, I would very much recommend objectivity concerning the unfortunate political elements added to the provenance as they are not relevant to the probable arrival of the pistol in this context. These events and actions took place many generations later and while most of us are aware of them, they are best left outside this discourse.

Thank you for posting this fascinating pistol, and hope more detailed ID will be forthcoming.

trenchwarfare · 20th September 2014, 05:37 PM

Interesting piece, with an even more interesting history. As I delve deeper, and deeper into Chinese firearms, I've learned that ANYTHING is possible. If it propelled a projectile down range, it was used. Many muzzle loaders were made throughout the 20th century.

fernando · 20th September 2014, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I would very much recommend objectivity concerning the unfortunate political elements added to the provenance as they are not relevant to the probable arrival of the pistol in this context. These events and actions took place many generations later and while most of us are aware of them, they are best left outside this discourse ...

Absolutely

20th September 2014, 06:55 AM	#1
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Percussion pistol with interesting associations I got this years ago through a Chinese woman whose father had some connection to a complex of antiques warehouses in Tianjin. Evidently, this is where antiques and other "bourgeois" possessions were hauled off to when they were confiscated after the 1949 revolution, the Cultural Revolution, and other times of ideological turmoil. She and her husband came to the US selling these odds and ends several times roughly twenty years ago. The story I got was that this pistol was picked up after the Tian An Men demonstrations. Her story loosely confirmed those of two students I knew from BeiDa who were present in the square the night everything hit the fan. One of them was seriously injured and hauled to the hospital on one of the ubiquitous three wheeled bicycles then common throughout China. Without getting into the extreme details, as horrible and violent as that night was, the story is much more complicated than we got from the news media. In a nutshell, the students unveiling of the Goddess of Liberty statue was the spark that lit the fire. The PLA came in and with a heavy hand, cleaned out the square. We all know this. But what we didn't hear was that hundreds, if not about a thousand regular Chinese people came out with the intention of fighting the PLA and police. The people were armed with whatever they could get, from agricultural implements to kitchen gadgets, and whatever else they could find. This pistol was apparently part of that. For powder they used ordinary firecracker powder, the whitish residue remains on the hammer and around the nipple. Match heads were used as caps. In the intervening years, a lot of this residue has rusted off, but I felt it was important at the time not to disturb it. The pistol itself shows evidence of old repairs, the side plate is set up to engage a belt hook. I suspect it is a model from a European navy that somehow got away during the 19th century and remained in China. It's of a small caliber, and has a short grip. Normally I'm skeptical of stories, but since I got it years after I heard the "insiders" story of the night on the square, I had to get it. This is the first time I have showed it. It's been in storage for about ten years and just surfaced during my move. Comments welcome. For the moderators: I agonized over whether it belongs in the ethno or European forum. Since it's last use was Asian, I opted for the former. Attached Images Last edited by Robert; 21st September 2014 at 07:23 AM.

20th September 2014, 02:37 PM	#3
Shakethetrees Member Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Louisiana Posts: 363	Yes, the PLA/police were hung from the bridge in Beijing in the manner that the contractors were strung up in Faluja, Iraq. The Faluja image is probably more familiar to us. That's why I brought it into the post.

20th September 2014, 05:31 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	It is always exciting to see items with interesting provenance, and as this is indeed a European percussion pistol the fact that it ended up in China of course immediately sends thought to Boxer rebellion. Naturally that is considerably later than the probable 1840s period for this, however many earlier weapons ended up there with various contingents among the number of foreign legations represented. I can recall a British heavy cavalry disc hilt (M1796) found among the arms of Chinese forces, but that may have been of the volume of surplus items dispersed in the mid 19th century. I don't have much in resources on pistols, but my inclination is this is probably French (or perhaps Liege production?) and as well observed, likely a naval belt pistol. I think the 'ethnographic' venue was a good call in subjective view in consideration of circumstances, however for identification purposes, it is best to go with objective detail better found on European venue. On that note, I would very much recommend objectivity concerning the unfortunate political elements added to the provenance as they are not relevant to the probable arrival of the pistol in this context. These events and actions took place many generations later and while most of us are aware of them, they are best left outside this discourse. Thank you for posting this fascinating pistol, and hope more detailed ID will be forthcoming.

20th September 2014, 05:37 PM	#5
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Interesting piece, with an even more interesting history. As I delve deeper, and deeper into Chinese firearms, I've learned that ANYTHING is possible. If it propelled a projectile down range, it was used. Many muzzle loaders were made throughout the 20th century.