Old kris for comment

Henk · 19th March 2010, 09:18 PM

Seeing many kris, sundang for comment i would like to post one of mine.

This one has no scabbard. What kind of scabbard does this one need? What about the hilt? It has no bacca bacca, but i cann't remove it.
Length of the blade without hilt is 60 cm or 23,5 inch. With hilt 74 cm or 29 inch. Blade is still rather sharp.

I look forward to your comments.

Marcokeris · 19th March 2010, 10:45 PM

It seems very very nice (i never seen one like this) and old

ThePepperSkull · 20th March 2010, 02:46 AM

Usually when I see a Kris with a keyed tang repair, it either appreas that it was done so in haste or there is an attempt to make the repair match the rest of the blade by polishing it down, yet there is still that signature rectangular silhouette on the blade.

I haven't seen this before, however. The repair was not made in an attempt integrate the new tang into the current aesthetic of the blade, but set itself apart where it even outlines or showcases it... yet it looks like it belongs there. I really quite like it. Haven't seen anything like this before, I wonder if keyed tang repairs that look this attractive or purposeful is more common than i think.

kai · 20th March 2010, 03:47 AM

Hello Henk,

Thanks for sharing this - I have a sweet spot or odd pieces!

Is there any hint that the blade may be European?

The base resembles Indian swords and it may be an attempt to integrate a foreign blade into a Moro kris rather than being a repair...

The pommel is also unusual (or rather unique AFAIK).

Despite the patina and based on workmanship, I'm inclined to believe that this piece represents a later attempt (turn of the 19th century?) rather than an older style.

Regards,
Kai

ThePepperSkull · 20th March 2010, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Henk,

Thanks for sharing this - I have a sweet spot or odd pieces!

Is there any hint that the blade may be European?

The base resembles Indian swords and it may be an attempt to integrate a foreign blade into a Moro kris rather than being a repair...

The pommel is also unusual (or rather unique AFAIK).

Despite the patina and based on workmanship, I'm inclined to believe that this piece represents a later attempt (turn of the 19th century?) rather than an older style.

Regards,
Kai

I had never thought about that! Very interesting observation about the similarity in Indian blades. The 'guard' on this reminds me of an indonesian (Acehnese?) Peudeueng Peusangan, which has a hilt influenced by Indian design:

Another good observation about the manufacture date. The carving of the greneng definitely looks more recent than 18th century.

Where do you think this particular blade comes from, Kai? It's a complete mystery to me. I'd say it looks Malay peninsula to me, but my personal assessment is not based off of much.

Henk · 20th March 2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Henk,

Thanks for sharing this - I have a sweet spot or odd pieces!

Is there any hint that the blade may be European?

The base resembles Indian swords and it may be an attempt to integrate a foreign blade into a Moro kris rather than being a repair...

The pommel is also unusual (or rather unique AFAIK).

Despite the patina and based on workmanship, I'm inclined to believe that this piece represents a later attempt (turn of the 19th century?) rather than an older style.

Regards,
Kai

Kai,

My pleasure to share it with you all.

There is no hint that the blade might be European. It has no marks or anything else that could be identified. If such a mark was present i certainly would have made a picture of it.

The blade fits the base with tang like a blade fits into its scabbard. It could be a repair or using, as suggested a foreign blade into a Moro kris.

But, to be honest, i haven't the slightest idea about it. I hope to get some more information from our knowledgeable forummembers.
As mentioned both edges are still rather sharp. Holding it in my hands i'm convinced it is in battle a nasty weapon.

Maurice · 20th March 2010, 06:40 PM

Another headbreaker........

Thank you for sharing this nice one, Henk.

VANDOO · 20th March 2010, 06:48 PM

I BID ON SOMETHING SIMULAR ON EBAY A WHILE BACK BUT THE PICTURES WERE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO TELL MUCH, OTHER THAN THAT I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS KRIS. IT IS EITHER A NON TRADITIONAL METHOD TO REPAIR A BROKEN TANG OR A MODIFICATION TO STRENGTHEN AND ELIMINATE THE NEED FOR BACA BACA STRAPS

. EITHER WAY IT APPEARS TO BE VERY STRONGLY MOUNTED NOW, I SEE THREE PINS THRU THE BLADE AND TANG AND THERE MAY BE MORE UNDER THE WRAP ON THE HANDLE. AN X RAY WOULD SHOW IF THE ORIGINAL TANG WAS BROKEN AND HIGHLIGHT ANY OTHER PINS OR HOLES IN THE TANG. ALL IN ALL A VERY INTERESTING, STRONG AND ATTRACTIVE MODIFICATION.

THANKS FOR SHAREING

Henk · 20th March 2010, 09:22 PM

Maurice,

My pleasure.

Vandoo,

It is a very strong construction indeed. The tang with the base of this kris is mounted with two pins to the blade. The third pin through the tang is a simple nail in the hilt just passing the tang. I can remove that nail, but the hilt cann't be removed. Don't know the purpose of the nail but it is an old one and i just leave it there.

tom hyle · 28th March 2010, 11:34 PM

Bridging the gap between khanda and kris sundang; beauty; I have long noted the resemblance of the two protrusions below a khanda/firangi type guard to those engaged by the baca baca on kris sundang. Never expected to see the khanda's extreme lagnet on a kris though. Super cool. I more suspect this is original than a repair.

Sajen · 28th March 2010, 11:41 PM

Hello Henk,

very interesting kris, never seen something like this before.

Battara · 29th March 2010, 01:18 AM

I don't know how I missed this thread. Nice Malaysian kris or sundang. Don't think it had baka-baka clamps originally. Many of these kris didn't in my observation. I have seen this type of construction before on both Moro and Malaysian sundang, especially Malaysian ones, although what makes this one unusual is that it extends to the entire bottom part of the blade.

Henk · 30th March 2010, 08:22 PM

Sajen,

I haven't seen one like this neither.

Tom, Battara,

I also think it is not a repair. There are no signs of baka-baka clamps that are missing on the blade so I completely agree with Battara that this one never had baka-baka clamps.
You say Battara, that this is not the first time you see this kind of construction. Any idea what kind of scabbard this one had original?

Gentlemen, thank you for your input.

Battara · 30th March 2010, 11:34 PM

Well, the scabbard would be one where there would not be a separate wranga like in some Moro pieces. The picture below is an example of what I am talking about (from another recent thread). Would it have had silver pieces on it - could not say without a little more research.

By the way - I doubt the wrap on it now is the original. Would have to take a personal look and some research of the region to see what might have been originally there.

Henk · 31st March 2010, 03:24 PM

Thanks Battara, for your efforts. Now I know what scabbard this one should need. The bindngs on mine aren't original as well. Just copper wire.

ThePepperSkull · 31st March 2010, 08:48 PM

I have always wondered about the top part of the scabbard/scabbard mouth on Keris Sundang Melayu. That black band -- is that horn? It reminds me of the koiguchi of a katana's saya, which is also placed at the mouth of the saya and made of black horn.

Battara · 31st March 2010, 09:32 PM

When one it present, yes it is horn.

buendia · 31st March 2010, 10:29 PM

What a beauty - when you are going to sell this one send me a note!

Alam Shah · 1st April 2010, 12:10 AM

Henk, this is a 'sundang kapit', a Peninsular Malay form.. the whole construction is original, as Battara mentioned. Congratulations! nice find..

Henk · 1st April 2010, 06:57 PM

Alam Shah,

Thank you for your input and indentification. I'm very happy happy with it. It is a great weapon.

ThePepperSkull · 9th July 2010, 07:22 AM

Does anyone have any more examples of Sundang Kapit? when in time was this/were these kinds of sundang made? Is there any cultural significances to it in terms of how it differs from, say "regular" Kris Sundang?

19th March 2010, 09:18 PM	#1
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Old kris for comment Seeing many kris, sundang for comment i would like to post one of mine. This one has no scabbard. What kind of scabbard does this one need? What about the hilt? It has no bacca bacca, but i cann't remove it. Length of the blade without hilt is 60 cm or 23,5 inch. With hilt 74 cm or 29 inch. Blade is still rather sharp. I look forward to your comments. Attached Images

28th March 2010, 11:34 PM	#10
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	holy Toledo! Bridging the gap between khanda and kris sundang; beauty; I have long noted the resemblance of the two protrusions below a khanda/firangi type guard to those engaged by the baca baca on kris sundang. Never expected to see the khanda's extreme lagnet on a kris though. Super cool. I more suspect this is original than a repair.

30th March 2010, 11:34 PM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Well, the scabbard would be one where there would not be a separate wranga like in some Moro pieces. The picture below is an example of what I am talking about (from another recent thread). Would it have had silver pieces on it - could not say without a little more research. By the way - I doubt the wrap on it now is the original. Would have to take a personal look and some research of the region to see what might have been originally there. Attached Images

19th March 2010, 10:45 PM	#2
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	It seems very very nice (i never seen one like this) and old

20th March 2010, 02:46 AM	#3
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Usually when I see a Kris with a keyed tang repair, it either appreas that it was done so in haste or there is an attempt to make the repair match the rest of the blade by polishing it down, yet there is still that signature rectangular silhouette on the blade. I haven't seen this before, however. The repair was not made in an attempt integrate the new tang into the current aesthetic of the blade, but set itself apart where it even outlines or showcases it... yet it looks like it belongs there. I really quite like it. Haven't seen anything like this before, I wonder if keyed tang repairs that look this attractive or purposeful is more common than i think.

20th March 2010, 03:47 AM	#4
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Hello Henk, Thanks for sharing this - I have a sweet spot or odd pieces! Is there any hint that the blade may be European? The base resembles Indian swords and it may be an attempt to integrate a foreign blade into a Moro kris rather than being a repair... The pommel is also unusual (or rather unique AFAIK). Despite the patina and based on workmanship, I'm inclined to believe that this piece represents a later attempt (turn of the 19th century?) rather than an older style. Regards, Kai

20th March 2010, 06:40 PM	#7
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,330	Another headbreaker........ Thank you for sharing this nice one, Henk.

20th March 2010, 06:48 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I BID ON SOMETHING SIMULAR ON EBAY A WHILE BACK BUT THE PICTURES WERE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO TELL MUCH, OTHER THAN THAT I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS KRIS. IT IS EITHER A NON TRADITIONAL METHOD TO REPAIR A BROKEN TANG OR A MODIFICATION TO STRENGTHEN AND ELIMINATE THE NEED FOR BACA BACA STRAPS . EITHER WAY IT APPEARS TO BE VERY STRONGLY MOUNTED NOW, I SEE THREE PINS THRU THE BLADE AND TANG AND THERE MAY BE MORE UNDER THE WRAP ON THE HANDLE. AN X RAY WOULD SHOW IF THE ORIGINAL TANG WAS BROKEN AND HIGHLIGHT ANY OTHER PINS OR HOLES IN THE TANG. ALL IN ALL A VERY INTERESTING, STRONG AND ATTRACTIVE MODIFICATION. THANKS FOR SHAREING

20th March 2010, 09:22 PM	#9
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Maurice, My pleasure. Vandoo, It is a very strong construction indeed. The tang with the base of this kris is mounted with two pins to the blade. The third pin through the tang is a simple nail in the hilt just passing the tang. I can remove that nail, but the hilt cann't be removed. Don't know the purpose of the nail but it is an old one and i just leave it there.

28th March 2010, 11:41 PM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,761	Hello Henk, very interesting kris, never seen something like this before.

29th March 2010, 01:18 AM	#12
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	I don't know how I missed this thread. Nice Malaysian kris or sundang. Don't think it had baka-baka clamps originally. Many of these kris didn't in my observation. I have seen this type of construction before on both Moro and Malaysian sundang, especially Malaysian ones, although what makes this one unusual is that it extends to the entire bottom part of the blade.

30th March 2010, 08:22 PM	#13
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Sajen, I haven't seen one like this neither. Tom, Battara, I also think it is not a repair. There are no signs of baka-baka clamps that are missing on the blade so I completely agree with Battara that this one never had baka-baka clamps. You say Battara, that this is not the first time you see this kind of construction. Any idea what kind of scabbard this one had original? Gentlemen, thank you for your input.

31st March 2010, 03:24 PM	#15
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Thanks Battara, for your efforts. Now I know what scabbard this one should need. The bindngs on mine aren't original as well. Just copper wire.

31st March 2010, 08:48 PM	#16
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I have always wondered about the top part of the scabbard/scabbard mouth on Keris Sundang Melayu. That black band -- is that horn? It reminds me of the koiguchi of a katana's saya, which is also placed at the mouth of the saya and made of black horn.

31st March 2010, 09:32 PM	#17
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	When one it present, yes it is horn.

31st March 2010, 10:29 PM	#18
buendia Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Silesia, Poland Posts: 41	What a beauty - when you are going to sell this one send me a note!

1st April 2010, 12:10 AM	#19
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Henk, this is a 'sundang kapit', a Peninsular Malay form.. the whole construction is original, as Battara mentioned. Congratulations! nice find..

1st April 2010, 06:57 PM	#20
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Alam Shah, Thank you for your input and indentification. I'm very happy happy with it. It is a great weapon.

9th July 2010, 07:22 AM	#21
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	Does anyone have any more examples of Sundang Kapit? when in time was this/were these kinds of sundang made? Is there any cultural significances to it in terms of how it differs from, say "regular" Kris Sundang?