9th June 2024, 11:53 PM | #1 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 78
|
New shamshir: hoping for a diamond in the rough.
I picked up a nondescriptly named "curved sword" at an auction recently and may have done alright for myself despite my initial disappointment at the blade. From the auction photo I could see some form of calligraphy on the blade but not much else. The grip looks almost like one of the "modernized military Khyber knife" grips I've seen on some sabers from areas around and in Afghanistan. When I got the sword, there was no visible wootz, just some oddly twinkling crystalline dots amid the rust. The cartouche seemed promising though so I went ahead and cleaned a portion of the blade and did a minor test etch (please don't judge the etch I'm still figuring that part out hahaha). My progress so far showed most of my initial worries were unfounded. I'd love to hear y'all's thoughts. I'll post an update when I can manage a respectable etching. The cartouche has a "172" at the bottom of it. Assuming the rest of the inscription is fiction, I'm assuming that might point to a Gregorian 1759 manufacturing date for the blade?
|
10th June 2024, 04:28 AM | #2 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
|
This is indeed a diamond in the rough. It looks like a Persian trade blade, but I'll let the wootz experts confirm this.
I agree with the Afghan hilt attribution. Congratulations. |
10th June 2024, 12:40 PM | #3 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
|
I'm nowhere near a wootz expert, but the pattern seems very linear for wootz, with parallel lines bunched together near the sharpened edge. Looks maybe like a laminated blade to me, but let's hear from our more knowledgeable members.
|
10th June 2024, 05:06 PM | #4 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Germany
Posts: 95
|
Hi,
I agree that is a nice example of a late 19th century Afghan shamshir, and the blade earlier than the hilt. I am quite certain the blade is wootz. These parallel lines along the cutting edge are a feature that is commonly seen on shamshir blades with nice watered wootz patterns, I have attached a close up of the pattern of my own Afghan shamshir that I managed to grab earlier this year. As for the cartouche I don't think that it is a Persian trade blade, rather locally made. These a bit crude looking single cartouches I have seen before on Afghan blades, I have added two mounted in pulwar hilts that seem to made with the same stamp. Those two have written amal-e assadullah esfahani whereas your's has the bandeye shah-e velayat, the second part of the generic Persian double cartouche, but otherwise they look quite similar to me. I feel the date seems a bit early, but on the other hand I don't think it would make much sense to fake a date that is after all still not that early, so it might be genuine. |
10th June 2024, 05:56 PM | #5 |
Vikingsword Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,194
|
Thank you GePi. As noted already, I'm no expert on wootz! I have seen similar linear markings along the edge of some laminated Filipino blades, which prompted my question about whether this was in fact wootz. You have provided clear evidence it is. That's a lovely blade that you have shown.
Nice pick-up 10th Royal! |
10th June 2024, 06:43 PM | #6 |
Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,596
|
Hi,
The hilt configuration would suggest it has undergone a local interpretation of a Western style sword hilt and guard much as has happened to this Khyber knife of mine. You'll notice the scabbard even has a drag although this is entirely pointless as the scabbard is far too short to be anywhere near ground level. This adaptation to the chape is just a rote copy of British sword scabbards of the period. As far as I could determine searching the net this was done at the end of the 19thC when Britain had influence in the region and locals were styling their military along Western lines. Nice sword and I will look forward to seeing the blade when cleaned up a little. Regards, Norman. |
11th June 2024, 07:07 PM | #7 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
|
Another look changes my mind into the blade being a tight pattern damascus, which as Ian has said, has been found on some Moro pieces.
|
11th June 2024, 07:14 PM | #8 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,217
|
Here are pictures of my stolen gunong from years ago, with a close up of a wootz looking blade structure similar to your blade.
|
11th June 2024, 08:14 PM | #9 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 78
|
Fantastic info from all of y'all, it is all very much appreciated . And Norman, that was my exact thought! I wasn't able to find another example of this hilt type on a shamshir but it did not seem to be out of the realm of possibility. The "new" hilt is unfortunately of low quality. My bottle of Ferric Chloride just arrived so I'll have some (hopefully) pretty pictures shortly.
And beautiful blades GePi. One of those pulwar blades would really make this a piece to display instead of the current grip which looks like the work of a Khyber Pass gunsmith, hahaha. I'm open to it being laminated honestly. At the very least it was done well and isn't some tourist piece. Hopefully will get some clarity soon. |
12th June 2024, 06:14 PM | #10 | |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Germany
Posts: 95
|
Quote:
|
|
12th June 2024, 07:44 PM | #11 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 78
|
Quote:
I managed a marginally better etching with the Ferric Chloride. It does look more like wootz towards the edge now but gets less so towards the spine. Almost like it was heat treated composed of multiple steels. |
|
12th June 2024, 08:21 PM | #12 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,903
|
Yes, it appears to be Persian wootz but the etching is very poor.
You need to polish the blade to grit 2000 or even 2500 to be able to better reveal the pattern. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21732 |
12th June 2024, 09:25 PM | #13 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 52
|
Quote:
An example in original condition looks quite nice actually. These sword hilts were imitations of Afghan army pattern hilts, and were handmade by local smiths and sold to officers who wanted a fancy private purchase sword instead of their issued sword. That why I think the quality of the hilt is variable, since each smith made them by hand and one smith might be more skilled than the other. The army issue swords these were inspired by were made in the military factory with modern European machinery, which is why they were quite uniform quality wise |
|
2nd August 2024, 12:43 AM | #14 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 78
|
It has been two months from my first post. Etching this shamshir has taken me to the edge of sanity. mariusgmioc, your comment cut me deep. I have polished and etched polish and etched and polished and etched. I'm now using a mix of JSP 14k gold testing solution and Everclear Grain alcohol. Neither my hillbilly Nital nor Ferric Chloride showed the pattern I wanted. I have used up to 8000 grit. The best result I got was this:
And yes I know that isn't good. At the brink of sanity I realized that I DID have a shamshir in my collection with a nice wootz pattern, so it polished a portion of that blade and etched it with my best procedure. Below is the unetched side and the etched side: I am now convinced that whatever my new shamshir is, I'm not entirely sure it wants to be etched. Maybe it's not wootz. Maybe it's laminated. At this point I'm not even sure I care which it is. I'm just going to be content with what I have. |
4th August 2024, 03:46 PM | #15 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 464
|
Quote:
Mariusgmioc Could this be a local Afghan ore processed by a Iranian smith thus a slightly different contrast? I have read that Afghans, I don't know which tribe, were making their own crystalline wootz blades. It is possible that they were extracting their own ore rather than importing cakes of wootz from Iran or India. How long is the blade from the point to the guard? Last edited by Interested Party; 4th August 2024 at 04:20 PM. Reason: Incomplete thought |
|
7th August 2024, 11:03 PM | #16 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 52
|
Quote:
|
|
8th August 2024, 12:36 AM | #17 |
Member
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 486
|
Afghan Crucible Steel Production Likely
Hi All,
Part of Dr Anna Feuerbach’s doctoral thesis (Crucible Steel in Central Asia: Production, Use and Origins) deals with crucible steel manufacture in Merv Turkmenistan. The southern border of Turkmenistan abuts Afghanistan and Merv is in the southern part of Turkmenistan, Dr Feuerbach also examined crucible steel manufacturing in Uzbekistan which also shares a border with Afghanistan so it doesn’t seem to be unlikely that crucible steel was made in Afghanistan also. Sincerely, RobT |
8th August 2024, 02:31 PM | #18 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Eastern Sierra
Posts: 464
|
I believe Dmitry Miloserdov's Afghan Weapons book mentioned weapons production along the Indian border as well.
|
10th August 2024, 08:50 AM | #19 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Austria
Posts: 1,903
|
To me it looks like Persian wootz.
Why doesn't come out as in high contrast, I don't know as it can have many causes. I found out the best etching results are on surfaces polished to 2500-3000 grit. Higher polish gets worse results as the etchant does not "bite" the surface. I got best results with Nital 4% but this needs to be top quality etchant. I found out that some Nital suppliers don't respect the advertised concentreation and you don't get the expected results. Most of the times, I needed to apply Nital more times. As for the last few years I wasn't able to get Nital anymore, I started experimenting with ferric chloride, in commercially available concentrations, then diluted but without any rigurous measuring. Got generally good results with ferric too. I found out that even on the same blade there may be areas that display hugh contrast wootz pattern and some areas that won't display any pattern at all or a very faint one. My guess is that if the blade is reheated it may loose partly or completely the wootz pattern. I suspect this may be the case of your blade. |
12th August 2024, 04:06 PM | #20 | |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 78
|
Quote:
The reheating causing a loss of contrast is an interesting thought for sure. One interesting thing I noticed from my earlier etches which were way over etched was the near lack of wootz figuring near the blade spine. I'm wondering if the spine was heated at some point. Or potentially the spine is a different steel all together. In the photo posted below, the spine is to the right side of the image. |
|
|
|