Keris for comment

[Fheng]

I don't know much about this keris so any ideas on where it's from and when it was made would be much appreciated.

[David]

Well, the dress is obviously of Bali origin, but the blade itself seems to me to come from elsewhere. Is there a tight fit between blade and sheath? Some better photos would be helpful. Maybe get some light on the gandik side of the blade.

[Jean]

My personal guess would be: sheath & hilt from Lombok and blade from Sumbawa, but it is difficult to be sure from the pictures and the condition of the blade (unstained).
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

My personal guess would be: sheath & hilt from Lombok and blade from Sumbawa, but it is difficult to be sure from the pictures and the condition of the blade (unstained).
Regards

Hi Jean. Generally when i refer to a keris (or keris dress) as Bali i also leave the door open for the Lombok possibility since for the most part the major influence on Lombok keris is Bali. However, i am curious what elements of this keris dress lead you to more specifically guess at Lombak and even more curious what specific elements of this blade lead you to think Sumbawa.

[A. G. Maisey]

Lombok is always a good guess for something that doesn't quite fit into Bali, or generic Bugis, or Jawa.

There were settlers there from all these places, Bali colonised Lombok, the Bugis people established more than a foothold, and people from Jawa came to there too. They all kept their own style of keris --- and I guess other cultural appurtenances--- and after all the conflict died down there was a good bit of swapping and changing blade and dress styles.

I've handled blades that except for size looked 100% Jawa, the Lombok ones were bigger, but these were definitely Lombok origin. Often Lombok/Bali is simply impossible to differentiate, in fact the Raja of Badung (Den Pasar) had a number of Lombok/Bali keris as part of his regalia.

Bugis keris have certain generic characteristics, but if you mixed up 100 generic Bugis blades I doubt that anybody could identify the point of origin of those blades.

I once made a fool of myself by declaring unequivocally that a particular blade from a world famous museum was not from Palembang, but rather from Mataram. Turned out that it had provenance that made it very difficult to believe it could be from anywhere other than Palembang.

Another thing too:- smiths moved around. If work was slack in one place , they'd move to somewhere else. The chronicle of the Line of Descent of the Empus of the Land of Jawa attributed to Pangeran Wijil is full of the movements, marriages and children of these itinerant smiths.

I have a particular type of very rare Moro style keris that comes from Northern Borneo, it was actually the state execution keris of Brunei, it is of 100% Madura workmanship, and Madurese smiths were very widespread across S.E.Asia. Why? Because Madura was and still is, a pretty hard place to earn a living.

I'm mostly pretty comfortable in identifying Javanese and Balinese blades --- I regard Madura as a part of Jawa--- I'm not all that bad on Lombok blades, other people are pretty good with Peninsula blades, but once we move outside these areas I do really think it becomes a bit of a lottery to try to pin specific origin on generic blades.We can't rely at all on dress to help ID a blade, blades moved from one dress style to another with great regularity. A few years ago it was not at all unusual to come across Balinese and Bugis blades in Javanese dress, old Javanese dress that had been made for the blade. Why? Because the rulers and lords in Jawa used to employ these people as guards and soldiers.

There are a lot of traps in trying to ID non-mainstream blades.

[Fheng]

Originally Posted by David

Is there a tight fit between blade and sheath? Some better photos would be helpful. Maybe get some light on the gandik side of the blade.

The blade fits very tightly in to the sheath (almost too tight).
The length of the blade is 350mm so just under 14 inches.

I can take some more photographs in a few days and post them here.

After I purchased this keris I removed the stain not knowing how the blade should look. The steel it's made from is very eye catching. It has a very attractive silvery glow and I think it looks better this way. I don't mean to offend anyone , I know the keris is a very spiritual object and has a great history in many cultures, so please excuse me if I did.

Thanks for all the replies

[David]

Originally Posted by Fheng

The steel it's made from as very eye catching. It has a very attractive silvery glow and I think it looks better this way. I don't mean to offend anyone , I know the keris is a very spiritual object and has a great history in many cultures, so please excuse me if I did.

I don't think that you have offended anyone, but i would imagine that most keris enthusiasts would prefer to see this blade with a traditional stain that shows off the pamor pattern.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Hi Jean. Generally when i refer to a keris (or keris dress) as Bali i also leave the door open for the Lombok possibility since for the most part the major influence on Lombok keris is Bali. However, i am curious what elements of this keris dress lead you to more specifically guess at Lombak and even more curious what specific elements of this blade lead you to think Sumbawa.

Hi David,
Alan gave an excellent and general reply, my guess is based on the following observations:
. The sheath and hilt are in rustic style, the sheath is short, and the rattan binder on the gandar looks rather from Lombok than Bali.
. Regarding the blade, I see Bugis Sumbawa features from the rustic shape and ganja style, the triangular pamor pattern (barely) visible at the base, the roughly applied pamor, and mostly the specific style of the kembang kacang and lambe gajah which look "carved out" from the gandik. I won't disclaim that this blade could be from Lombok also but in regional Bugis style.
Other opinions are welcome

[Jean]

Another Bali/ Lombok kris with a regional Bugis style blade with 15 luks, look at the kembang kacang and lambe gajah especially.
Regards

[Sajen]

I personally think that it is a village made keris from Lombok. I have seen some keris like this and own a keris with a similar blade. Will post pictures later.
Like Alan write are the influences from other islands are special on Lombok great.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Thank you Detlef and I will be very interested to see your similar blade.
Regards
Jean

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Regarding the blade, I see Bugis Sumbawa features from the rustic shape and ganja style, the triangular pamor pattern (barely) visible at the base, the roughly applied pamor, and mostly the specific style of the kembang kacang and lambe gajah which look "carved out" from the gandik. I won't disclaim that this blade could be from Lombok also but in regional Bugis style.

Thanks for your response Jean. My question then is aren't these traits specific to Bugis keris in general? What am i trying to get at is what specifies a Sumbawa keris. I have seen all sorts of blade profiles presented on this forum as Sumbawa and have never seen us come to any kind of agreement as to what defines these blades that are supposed to be of this origin.
This is not to say that the blade is not Sumbawa, but i am trying to understand how i might be able to accurately identify such blades in the future and distinguish it from Bugis style blades from other regions.
I do agree with you sheath origin. Lombok was always on my radar.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you Detlef and I will be very interested to see your similar blade.
Regards
Jean

Hello Jean,

I was referring to the keris from Fheng. The keris you have shown have indeed some affinity with a keris I own and was with some certain purchased on Sumbawa. When you like I can present pictures from this keris as well.

Best,

Detlef

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by David

This is not to say that the blade is not Sumbawa, but i am trying to understand how i might be able to accurately identify such blades in the future and distinguish it from Bugis style blades from other regions.

I think that this will be very very difficult, there is not to much written or known about keris from Sumbawa.
I have one keris where the seller (a member here as well) stated that it was purchased on Sumbawa. Alan once have written in a other thread how Sumbawa blades should look and this blade fit with this description.

Best,

Detlef

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

I was referring to the keris from Fheng. The keris you have shown have indeed some affinity with a keris I own and was with some certain purchased on Sumbawa. When you like I can present pictures from this keris as well.

Best,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
Yes, please show us the pictures of your kris for reference and discussion.
And regarding the differentiation between the Bugis blades from Sumbawa or Lombok and those from Sulawesi, Riau Islands, and Malaysia, I am also very confused, may be Pak Hartadi could enlighten us about the subject?
Unfortunately there is nothing mentioned about it in the recent book "Senjata Pusaka Bugis".
Please also remind us the reference of the thread from Alan.
Regards
Jean

[Sajen]

Here at first pictures from my Lombok keris with similar blade. The contrast of the pamor is very low.

[Sajen]

Here one thread where are shown "Sumbawa" keris and Alan write about the look of Sumbawa blades.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=sumbawa

But when I remember correct there was a other thread where Alan write about the pamor of Sumbawa keris. Can't find it for the moment.

[Sajen]

And here the Sumbawa keris in my possession which I bought once from Pak Hartadi.

[Fheng]

1 of 2

[Fheng]

2 of 2

[Jean]

Hello Sajen,
Thank you for the very interesting pictures and thread, it is clear that the Sumbawa kris is an extremely complex and fascinating subject yet to be studied!
Regarding the kris from Fheng, I would still attribute the blade more probably to Sumbawa or another Bugis origin than to Lombok because of its size (350 mm)
Regards
Jean

[Sajen]

Hello Jean,

yes, Sumbawa keris is still a closed book and maybe never will be opened.

Regarding the keris from Fheng I think it is difficult to come to a good conclusion without handling the blade and the removal of the staining make it yet more difficult.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Sajen,
Thank you for the very interesting pictures and thread, it is clear that the Sumbawa kris is an extremely complex and fascinating subject yet to be studied!
Regarding the kris from Fheng, I would still attribute the blade more probably to Sumbawa or another Bugis origin than to Lombok because of its size (350 mm)

Perhaps Jean, but what limited resources that i have found always seem to refer to the materials used in Sumbawa keris as being somewhat inferior and bearing a course, sand-like texture. The texture of Fheng's keris seems to be rather smooth...

[Jean]

Hello David and Detlef,
Sorry I did not see the latest pictures from Fheng before writing my latest post and I agree that the origin of this blade remains uncertain.
Regarding the sand-like texture of the Sumbawa blades, I am of the opinion that this is not by far an universal aspect, you can refer to "Hartadi keris Lombok" site for instance which shows several krisses found in Sumbawa which do not meet at all this specification.
It seems to me that the krisses from Sumbawa are found in various qualities and specifications (dapur, pamor, iron, etc). It is possible that some blades were imported from Sulawesi or Lombok (or made by smiths coming from these islands), and that the pieces with sand-like texture and no pamor (tangguh Kupang) were produced by local smiths with inferior materials. Furthermore it is likely that the krisses from the Mbojo and Sumawa ethnic groups are different since they had little contacts, anybody could confirm?
Regards
Jean