Pesh Kabz

ALEX · 6th January 2008, 03:45 PM

I while ago Jens posted a few pictures of a nice Pesh Kabz. I encountered a similar dagger, and surprisingly the memory came back:-) These are quite rare, I think, and a few similar ones were on Sotheby's in 2006. Jens's one has very nice curve though and gold work. Here is the link (it's in the middle of the thread):
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=pesh
And here are pictures of another one. It's 15'' long, walrus handle, wootz, etc. The scabbard is original, I think, fits the blade well, but the fittings look Afghani to me. Any other opinions/comments?

Battara · 6th January 2008, 08:34 PM

Could be, although the dagger itself is Northern India, Mughal.

Jens Nordlunde · 7th January 2008, 07:31 PM

Alex,
Its a very nice pesh you have found, please give us a sharp close up of the inlay close to tha hilt. You have a scabbard - while I don't

.
Jens

ALEX · 7th January 2008, 08:51 PM

Jens,
Apart from scabbard, I think yours is better

Here are the closeups, hope they're good. Any similarities to yours???
THANKS!

Jens Nordlunde · 7th January 2008, 10:41 PM

Alex,

I have compared the two images from your and mine (in a special programe), of the decoration, and I find them rather alike, mine have birds and yours does not, but what surprises me a lot is the gold ‘cartouche’, which on both dagger seem to be rather blurred, and if I guess right, there will be a faint writing in yours, as it is in mine. Thank you for the pictures.

Jens

ALEX · 8th January 2008, 12:05 AM

Jens, no writing on mine.
As I mentioned earlier, yours is better:-)
Thanks for checking.

Jim McDougall · 9th January 2008, 04:18 AM

Isn't the 'calyx' at the back of the blade indicative of Central Asian edged weapons such as Uzbek, Turkmen and Afghan? It seems it appears on Khyber knives and I've seen it on Turkmen shamshirs.

ALEX · 9th January 2008, 10:40 AM

Jim, what do you mean by 'calyx'. Good point by the way; I thought of Central Asian origin, because of scabbard, but all reference to this particular form of Pesh (excluding scabbard) point to India.

Tatyana Dianova · 9th January 2008, 02:53 PM

Hi Alex,
A very nice Pesh Kabz you have there

I would also suggest Afghani origin for the fittings on your piece. I have quite different dagger, but the lower silver fitting on its scabbard seems to be similar to yours. My dagger is a strange combination: a Wootz khanjar blade, a Choora handle of well patinated ivory, and a set of scabbard fittings that are quite different in style to each other. The lower one is silver and upper one is made from German silver and has three nude (?) female (?) figures on it from one side. The scabbard is old and original to the dagger, as well as the handle, and all together it says "Afghani" to me. It seems that its creator have taken simply the spare parts that were available to him

ALEX · 9th January 2008, 05:53 PM

Very interesting dagger and especially wootz pattern, Tatyana.
It is possible to replace the tip of the scabbard of course, but the top would be much harder as it has to be exactly the same size and shape to fit. In my case I think the fittings were made for this particular scabbard - they fit it perfectly. It could "travel" from India to Afganistan to acquire a new dress:-)

ariel · 9th January 2008, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Isn't the 'calyx' at the back of the blade indicative of Central Asian edged weapons such as Uzbek, Turkmen and Afghan? It seems it appears on Khyber knives and I've seen it on Turkmen shamshirs.

I also notice 5 rivets on the handle:2x1x2.
We have discussed it before, and the official opinionis that C. Asian weapons had 5 VERY WIDE rivets.
However, all Khybers and Chooras I saw ( Afghani, of course!) had mostly 3, max. 4 rivets, and all C. Asian ones I have and saw had 5 of whatever size.
I second the C. Asian origin of this one.

Tim Simmons · 9th January 2008, 08:49 PM

The knife Tatyana shows here is most unusual. Not just the blade and handle which presumably belong to each other, I see no reason to doubt a tribal variation. The basic scabbard looks made for the knife even if the chape has been commandeered from something else. What is so intriguing is the metal work on the scabbard mouth. Most unorthodox when you bare in mind the region we are talking about, thier general view of female decorum modesty and postion in public life. The display of bare breasted ladies is very bold indeed if not fool hardy. I might suggest that what Tatyana has is an extremely rare knife from a small group of animist people that live in the area associated with these weapons. Give me an hour and I will come up with some more information. If one had no other idea, the patern of females seen on the scabbard mouth alone might remind one of designs from South America. Back shortly.

Tim Simmons · 9th January 2008, 09:11 PM

Lets face it knives like this although often expensive are more common than knobkerries. However I think this one is rare and has origins with the Kalash if they still exist as an independent tribe. Here is a picture from the BM with some helpful info and one can always google Kalash.

Tim Simmons · 9th January 2008, 09:22 PM

Note the reference to the women wearing a horned headdress and the depiction of women on the scabbard mouth.

ALEX · 10th January 2008, 12:09 AM

This is incredible research Tim !!! Fascinating. I also think it is special dagger.

Ariel, which dagger were you refferring to? Mine is only 2 x 2, not all drive:-)
The 4th dot is not a rivet, it is just a spot on the handle.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2008, 01:35 AM

Alex, the term 'calyx' refers to the flueret like element on the back of the blade which appears in line with the backstrap of the hilt. As mentioned, this has consistantly appeared to me a Central Asian affectation.
As has been noted, from the mid 19th century, the demarcation between North India and Central Asia, that is Afghanistan and the Northwest Frontier regions that are now Pakistan were anything but clear. Naturally the cross diffusion of weapons was typical, and if I am not mistaken, the Afghan daggers similar to the pesh kabz were either karud or the choora, both with straight rather than recurved blade. We know that tulwars were often found in Afghan regions, and the paluoar, the distinctively recognized Afghan sabre likely had its origins in the Deccan.

Tim, incredibly astute association there!!!

Those figures do indeed seem to be Kalash, and the Kalash do remain as an independant tribe in Chitral. They still maintain distinct tribal customs and traditions from thier origins in Kafiristan and I once had very interesting communications with a group here in the U.S. who are organized to preserve thier tribal identity. The Kafirs were the focus of the Rudyard Kipling classic "The Man Who Would be King".

All best regards,
Jim

Tatyana Dianova · 10th January 2008, 05:04 PM

Tim, thank you for very interesting information.
I thought that the dagger was from some Afghani tribe with the Persian influence, but the female image was always looking strange to me

The seller claimed that this dagger was in private German collection up from the beginning of the 20th century.

Alex, forgive me for using your thread

Jens Nordlunde · 10th January 2008, 05:25 PM

Tatyana,

Its a nice dagger you have – I don’t know what to call it, so I won’t try to invent a name.

Lovely blade, very nice hilt, but the scabbard is the most curious thing, notice that the women are on the inside of the scabbard mount, so that no one would see them.

Jens

ALEX · 10th January 2008, 06:47 PM

Tatyana, no need to apologise. It's all related. Besides, we learned something new.

Jim McDougall · 10th January 2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Tatyana,

Its a nice dagger you have – I don’t know what to call it, so I won’t try to invent a name.

Lovely blade, very nice hilt, but the scabbard is the most curious thing, notice that the women are on the inside of the scabbard mount, so that no one would see them.

Jens

Thats really interesting Jens! I didnt notice the figures are on the inside. I still think Tim is onto something with the Kalash association.

All the best,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 10th January 2008, 10:04 PM

All depends on how you carry your knife, left or right handed. One might wear it one way in a given situation and differently in another. One thing for sure it is unorthodox in the extreme.

6th January 2008, 03:45 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Pesh Kabz I while ago Jens posted a few pictures of a nice Pesh Kabz. I encountered a similar dagger, and surprisingly the memory came back:-) These are quite rare, I think, and a few similar ones were on Sotheby's in 2006. Jens's one has very nice curve though and gold work. Here is the link (it's in the middle of the thread): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=pesh And here are pictures of another one. It's 15'' long, walrus handle, wootz, etc. The scabbard is original, I think, fits the blade well, but the fittings look Afghani to me. Any other opinions/comments? Attached Images

7th January 2008, 07:31 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alex, Its a very nice pesh you have found, please give us a sharp close up of the inlay close to tha hilt. You have a scabbard - while I don't. Jens

7th January 2008, 08:51 PM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jens, Apart from scabbard, I think yours is better Here are the closeups, hope they're good. Any similarities to yours??? THANKS! Attached Images

9th January 2008, 02:53 PM	#9
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Hi Alex, A very nice Pesh Kabz you have there I would also suggest Afghani origin for the fittings on your piece. I have quite different dagger, but the lower silver fitting on its scabbard seems to be similar to yours. My dagger is a strange combination: a Wootz khanjar blade, a Choora handle of well patinated ivory, and a set of scabbard fittings that are quite different in style to each other. The lower one is silver and upper one is made from German silver and has three nude (?) female (?) figures on it from one side. The scabbard is old and original to the dagger, as well as the handle, and all together it says "Afghani" to me. It seems that its creator have taken simply the spare parts that were available to him Attached Images

9th January 2008, 09:11 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	KALASH Lets face it knives like this although often expensive are more common than knobkerries. However I think this one is rare and has origins with the Kalash if they still exist as an independent tribe. Here is a picture from the BM with some helpful info and one can always google Kalash.

6th January 2008, 08:34 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Could be, although the dagger itself is Northern India, Mughal.

7th January 2008, 10:41 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Alex, I have compared the two images from your and mine (in a special programe), of the decoration, and I find them rather alike, mine have birds and yours does not, but what surprises me a lot is the gold ‘cartouche’, which on both dagger seem to be rather blurred, and if I guess right, there will be a faint writing in yours, as it is in mine. Thank you for the pictures. Jens

8th January 2008, 12:05 AM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jens, no writing on mine. As I mentioned earlier, yours is better:-) Thanks for checking.

9th January 2008, 04:18 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Isn't the 'calyx' at the back of the blade indicative of Central Asian edged weapons such as Uzbek, Turkmen and Afghan? It seems it appears on Khyber knives and I've seen it on Turkmen shamshirs.

9th January 2008, 10:40 AM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Jim, what do you mean by 'calyx'. Good point by the way; I thought of Central Asian origin, because of scabbard, but all reference to this particular form of Pesh (excluding scabbard) point to India.

9th January 2008, 05:53 PM	#10
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Very interesting dagger and especially wootz pattern, Tatyana. It is possible to replace the tip of the scabbard of course, but the top would be much harder as it has to be exactly the same size and shape to fit. In my case I think the fittings were made for this particular scabbard - they fit it perfectly. It could "travel" from India to Afganistan to acquire a new dress:-)

9th January 2008, 08:49 PM	#12
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	The knife Tatyana shows here is most unusual. Not just the blade and handle which presumably belong to each other, I see no reason to doubt a tribal variation. The basic scabbard looks made for the knife even if the chape has been commandeered from something else. What is so intriguing is the metal work on the scabbard mouth. Most unorthodox when you bare in mind the region we are talking about, thier general view of female decorum modesty and postion in public life. The display of bare breasted ladies is very bold indeed if not fool hardy. I might suggest that what Tatyana has is an extremely rare knife from a small group of animist people that live in the area associated with these weapons. Give me an hour and I will come up with some more information. If one had no other idea, the patern of females seen on the scabbard mouth alone might remind one of designs from South America. Back shortly.

9th January 2008, 09:22 PM	#14
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Note the reference to the women wearing a horned headdress and the depiction of women on the scabbard mouth.

10th January 2008, 12:09 AM	#15
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	This is incredible research Tim !!! Fascinating. I also think it is special dagger. Ariel, which dagger were you refferring to? Mine is only 2 x 2, not all drive:-) The 4th dot is not a rivet, it is just a spot on the handle.

10th January 2008, 01:35 AM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Alex, the term 'calyx' refers to the flueret like element on the back of the blade which appears in line with the backstrap of the hilt. As mentioned, this has consistantly appeared to me a Central Asian affectation. As has been noted, from the mid 19th century, the demarcation between North India and Central Asia, that is Afghanistan and the Northwest Frontier regions that are now Pakistan were anything but clear. Naturally the cross diffusion of weapons was typical, and if I am not mistaken, the Afghan daggers similar to the pesh kabz were either karud or the choora, both with straight rather than recurved blade. We know that tulwars were often found in Afghan regions, and the paluoar, the distinctively recognized Afghan sabre likely had its origins in the Deccan. Tim, incredibly astute association there!!! Those figures do indeed seem to be Kalash, and the Kalash do remain as an independant tribe in Chitral. They still maintain distinct tribal customs and traditions from thier origins in Kafiristan and I once had very interesting communications with a group here in the U.S. who are organized to preserve thier tribal identity. The Kafirs were the focus of the Rudyard Kipling classic "The Man Who Would be King". All best regards, Jim

10th January 2008, 05:04 PM	#17
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 695	Tim, thank you for very interesting information. I thought that the dagger was from some Afghani tribe with the Persian influence, but the female image was always looking strange to me The seller claimed that this dagger was in private German collection up from the beginning of the 20th century. Alex, forgive me for using your thread

10th January 2008, 05:25 PM	#18
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Tatyana, Its a nice dagger you have – I don’t know what to call it, so I won’t try to invent a name. Lovely blade, very nice hilt, but the scabbard is the most curious thing, notice that the women are on the inside of the scabbard mount, so that no one would see them. Jens

10th January 2008, 06:47 PM	#19
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Tatyana, no need to apologise. It's all related. Besides, we learned something new.

10th January 2008, 10:04 PM	#21
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	All depends on how you carry your knife, left or right handed. One might wear it one way in a given situation and differently in another. One thing for sure it is unorthodox in the extreme.