Bringing out an oldy for comment

Lew · 20th October 2006, 06:19 AM

Hi All

I picked this keris up 4 or 5 yrs ago and thought it needed a revisiting

Lew

Alam Shah · 20th October 2006, 08:49 AM

Lew,
Interesting blade. Looks like it's made from a file.

However, the blade is nicely shaped in the Northern Malaysia / Patani style.

Lew · 20th October 2006, 11:12 AM

One theory is that the marks were made from a vise?

Alam Shah · 20th October 2006, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

One theory is that the marks were made from a vise?

Interesting theory. Possible, but unlikely. Unless it is done before the ganja is inserted into the pesi (tang). The 'criss-cross' marks are only visible at the thickest section of the blade, which is about the thickness of a thick file. The 'kriss-cross' portion near the gandik, is less visible possibly due to the filework done while shaping the gandik area.

Lew · 20th October 2006, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Interesting theory. Possible, but unlikely. Unless it is done before the ganja is inserted into the pesi (tang). The 'criss-cross' marks are only visible at the thickest section of the blade, which is about the thickness of a thick file. The 'kriss-cross' portion near the gandik, is less visible possibly due to the filework done while shaping the gandik area.

Alam Shah

If you look at the left side you will notice the marks appear at a high point just to the right of the Kembang kacang or Belalai Gajah. Do you think this was purposely done to provide a perch or a guide for proper for gripping the keris?

Lew

Alam Shah · 20th October 2006, 04:51 PM

Lew,

Attached are your pictures with some illustrations to aid in our discussion.
(I hope you don't mind). Just to clear some doubts I'm having.

If you don't mind, could you post a picture from the top of the cross-section, with the hilt and hilt cup removed? By the way, what is the thickness at the
thickest part of the blade?

Lew · 20th October 2006, 06:22 PM

Ther are marks on the other side of the blade I will take a shot of it when I get home tonight. Btw great graphic on the pics.

Lew

kai · 20th October 2006, 09:29 PM

Quote:

One theory is that the marks were made from a vise?

I'd also bet on a recycled file.

If it were impression marks from a vise, you'd expect them to show the negative rather than the surface pattern for better gripping you're used to from a vise...

Probably Alan did also this keris blade to confuse us even more!

kai · 20th October 2006, 09:42 PM

Hello Lew,

Quote:

Do you think this was purposely done to provide a perch or a guide for proper for gripping the keris?

I don't think so: The grip pretty much falls into place and is more used to direct the blade rather than holding it (as you know, the pushing is done with the center of the palm - not the fingers).

I'm wondering wether there was any forging done on the blade or just stock removal? (Must have been a pain to do from a fully hardened file!) Maybe a light etch would reveal more about the workmanship?

Could you please also post a close-up of the pesi? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

Lew · 21st October 2006, 03:49 PM

closeups of both sides. Sorry Kai the hilt is on pretty tight so I am not going to chance damaging it by trying to remove it at this time.

Lew

Rick · 21st October 2006, 04:59 PM

Any sign of folding or pamor on this blade Lew ?

Rick · 21st October 2006, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Lew,

I don't think so: The grip pretty much falls into place and is more used to direct the blade rather than holding it (as you know, the pushing is done with the center of the palm - not the fingers).

I'm wondering wether there was any forging done on the blade or just stock removal? (Must have been a pain to do from a fully hardened file!) Maybe a light etch would reveal more about the workmanship?

Could you please also post a close-up of the pesi? Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

Could the file have been anealed to soft ; then have been worked, carved and then retempered / hardened when finished ?

Lew · 21st October 2006, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Any sign of folding or pamor on this blade Lew ?

Rick

There are a few spots that may show some linear pamor but over all the look is a spongey iron appearance you would not see that characteristic if it was made from a file. The ganja shows some lamination but it may have been made from another piece of steel .

Lew

Rick · 21st October 2006, 07:27 PM

Why would the marks be on the keris if it did not start life as a file?
If that isn't a remnant of the cross grooves and points of a file then what could it be ?

A vise ?

Would the scenario proposed in my previous post be doable ?
I am no smith .

Alam Shah · 21st October 2006, 10:05 PM

Lew,

Thanks for the clearer picture.

The blade's diamond cross-section should extend all the way to the base of the blade. In this example, it seems that the thickness is not enough to form the base properly, which is approximately 1/2" or 1.5cm (it does vary).

This is how the base should look like for this type of blade.
(Example, courtesy of BluErf's gallery.

)
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

From the first picture, there seems to be no sign of a temper.

Example of a 'visible' tempered blade, (courtesy of BluErf's). A two-toned finish.
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

Kind Regards,
Shahrial

BluErf · 22nd October 2006, 07:46 AM

Congrats to Lew for having such a beautiful Keris pandai saras.

I think this is a Pattani keris, judging from the hilt style and the greneng.

I think this is still a 'san-mai' construction keris, with the softer steel outer layers sandwiching a harder steel core. There is a difference in the surface condition (different extent of pitting) of the cutting edge and the central body.

The outer soft steel layer could have been made from a file, in my opinion, because of the cross-hatching on the central portion of the base, and on the high point of the gandik.

Alam Shah · 22nd October 2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

... The outer soft steel layer could have been made from a file, in my opinion, because of the cross-hatching on the central portion of the base, and on the high point of the gandik.

Hmmm... I think initially the file might be shaped via 'stock removal' method, and later maybe heat-treated(?) but not the entire blade. Perhap an etch could reveal the etch mark, as kai suggested.

A question. How the high-point on the gandik was constructed and shaped?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

... I think this is still a 'san-mai' construction keris, with the softer steel outer layers sandwiching a harder steel core..

Another question. If it is sandwiched, why wasn't the base of the blade also sandwiched?

BluErf · 22nd October 2006, 05:30 PM

Perhaps close-up pics of the edge would confirm the construction of the keris.

The base of the keris should be sandwiched, just that the softer outer layer completely envelopes the harder steel core. Not surprising, since the maker will have to fashion the greneng, kembang kacang, jalen, etc. Would make a whole lot sense to work on the softer material. Check out one of my keris pandai saras. The harder steel core only shows well above the base the blade.

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

Lew · 22nd October 2006, 06:09 PM

I took the blade out is some good light and there is a dark line an 1/8 th of an inch wide running down the the length of the blade's edge so this is similar to san mai sorry but I can only see this when the blade is at a certain angle it will be very hard to capture it in a photo. So if this is san mai the use of a file as an outer skin is unlikely files were fully hardened in the 19th and early 20th century so I still think this was squished in a vise at some time. Btw where the diamond cross section ends is higher and thicker than where you see the cross hatch marks so I think that kills the file not being thick enough theory. So vise marks is now the most likely culprit

Lew

The Double D · 22nd October 2006, 07:00 PM

If those marks are from a vise jaw then the entire surface of them should be flat. Those marks appear to me to be incised. The only only type of vise jaw that could have made those marks are a vice jaw made from a file.

Lew · 22nd October 2006, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Double D

If those marks are from a vise jaw then the entire surface of them should be flat. Those marks appear to me to be incised. The only only type of vise jaw that could have made those marks are a vice jaw make for a file.

The area where you see the marks is flattened thats why I think it was done by a vise.

Lew

Rick · 22nd October 2006, 10:57 PM

Now that is strange ..

For what reason other than to set (reset/replace) the gonjo would you put a keris in the vise and under enough pressure to indent the surface so deeply?
Unless it was put in the vise really hot .

Lew · 22nd October 2006, 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Now that is strange ..

For what reason other than to set (reset/replace) the gonjo would you put a keris in the vise and under enough pressure to indent the surface so deeply?
Unless it was put in the vise really hot .

We may never know

A mystery wrapped up in an enigma

Lew

Rick · 22nd October 2006, 11:14 PM

Aye .
Something to ponder for the ages .

I love the form of this keris .

The Double D · 23rd October 2006, 05:07 AM

Don't stay up after bed time and type...

Of course what I meant to type was vise jaw made from a file and not make for a file. I have corrected it.

...and English is my first language...okay American is my first language!

A. G. Maisey · 23rd October 2006, 07:27 AM

File or vise?

May I suggest that you look at this pattern under magnification, Lew.

There are criss-cross lines with a diamond between.

If the lines are impressed and the diamond higher than the lines, I think we are looking at a file.

If the diamond is impressed and the lines are higher than the diamond, I think we are looking at a vise imprint.

Have a look at the jaws on a metalworking vise and you'll see what I mean.

Regarding the different colour and texture of the edges.

A keris blade is not normally tempered. It is taken to critical, and then quenched to harden it. The tempering that reduces the hardness of a blade to minimise risk of fracture is not normally done with a keris blade.

However, there is another way to minimise risk of fracture, and that is to ensure that only the point and the edges go to critical, whilst the center of the blade stays below critical. This is not such a big trick to do, if you harden by passing the blade through a live flame, and quench as soon as the edges get to critical, which of course is going to happen a lot sooner than the center getting to critical, because the edges and point are thinner.The result is that only the edges have undergone the structural change that makes steel hard, and only those edges are going show the characteristic darkness, and long term erosion associated with hardened steel.

Result:- hard edges, softer center; a similar result to what would have been achieved if one had drawn.

kai · 23rd October 2006, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

File or vise?

May I suggest that you look at this pattern under magnification, Lew.

There are criss-cross lines with a diamond between.

If the lines are impressed and the diamond higher than the lines, I think we are looking at a file.

If the diamond is impressed and the lines are higher than the diamond, I think we are looking at a vise imprint.

I think Alan explained my comment above better than me.
I believe I'm seeing the diamonds being higher, i. e. a file...

Regards,
Kai

20th October 2006, 06:19 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Bringing out an oldy for comment Hi All I picked this keris up 4 or 5 yrs ago and thought it needed a revisiting Lew Attached Images

20th October 2006, 04:51 PM	#6
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Lew, Attached are your pictures with some illustrations to aid in our discussion. (I hope you don't mind). Just to clear some doubts I'm having. If you don't mind, could you post a picture from the top of the cross-section, with the hilt and hilt cup removed? By the way, what is the thickness at the thickest part of the blade? Attached Images

21st October 2006, 03:49 PM	#10
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	closeups of both sides. Sorry Kai the hilt is on pretty tight so I am not going to chance damaging it by trying to remove it at this time. Lew Attached Images

21st October 2006, 10:05 PM	#15
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	More or less... a file beginning... Lew, Thanks for the clearer picture. The blade's diamond cross-section should extend all the way to the base of the blade. In this example, it seems that the thickness is not enough to form the base properly, which is approximately 1/2" or 1.5cm (it does vary). This is how the base should look like for this type of blade. (Example, courtesy of BluErf's gallery. ) http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php From the first picture, there seems to be no sign of a temper. Example of a 'visible' tempered blade, (courtesy of BluErf's). A two-toned finish. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php Kind Regards, Shahrial Last edited by Alam Shah; 22nd October 2006 at 04:22 AM. Reason: grammar...

22nd October 2006, 06:09 PM	#19
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I took the blade out is some good light and there is a dark line an 1/8 th of an inch wide running down the the length of the blade's edge so this is similar to san mai sorry but I can only see this when the blade is at a certain angle it will be very hard to capture it in a photo. So if this is san mai the use of a file as an outer skin is unlikely files were fully hardened in the 19th and early 20th century so I still think this was squished in a vise at some time. Btw where the diamond cross section ends is higher and thicker than where you see the cross hatch marks so I think that kills the file not being thick enough theory. So vise marks is now the most likely culprit Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 22nd October 2006 at 06:55 PM.

20th October 2006, 08:49 AM	#2
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Lew, Interesting blade. Looks like it's made from a file. However, the blade is nicely shaped in the Northern Malaysia / Patani style.

20th October 2006, 11:12 AM	#3
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	One theory is that the marks were made from a vise?

20th October 2006, 06:22 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Ther are marks on the other side of the blade I will take a shot of it when I get home tonight. Btw great graphic on the pics. Lew

21st October 2006, 04:59 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Any sign of folding or pamor on this blade Lew ?

21st October 2006, 07:27 PM	#14
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Why would the marks be on the keris if it did not start life as a file? If that isn't a remnant of the cross grooves and points of a file then what could it be ? A vise ? Would the scenario proposed in my previous post be doable ? I am no smith .

22nd October 2006, 07:46 AM	#16
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Congrats to Lew for having such a beautiful Keris pandai saras. I think this is a Pattani keris, judging from the hilt style and the greneng. I think this is still a 'san-mai' construction keris, with the softer steel outer layers sandwiching a harder steel core. There is a difference in the surface condition (different extent of pitting) of the cutting edge and the central body. The outer soft steel layer could have been made from a file, in my opinion, because of the cross-hatching on the central portion of the base, and on the high point of the gandik.

22nd October 2006, 05:30 PM	#18
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Perhaps close-up pics of the edge would confirm the construction of the keris. The base of the keris should be sandwiched, just that the softer outer layer completely envelopes the harder steel core. Not surprising, since the maker will have to fashion the greneng, kembang kacang, jalen, etc. Would make a whole lot sense to work on the softer material. Check out one of my keris pandai saras. The harder steel core only shows well above the base the blade. http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_photo.php

22nd October 2006, 07:00 PM	#20
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	If those marks are from a vise jaw then the entire surface of them should be flat. Those marks appear to me to be incised. The only only type of vise jaw that could have made those marks are a vice jaw made from a file. Last edited by The Double D; 23rd October 2006 at 05:04 AM.

22nd October 2006, 10:57 PM	#22
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Now that is strange .. For what reason other than to set (reset/replace) the gonjo would you put a keris in the vise and under enough pressure to indent the surface so deeply? Unless it was put in the vise really hot .

22nd October 2006, 11:14 PM	#24
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Aye . Something to ponder for the ages . I love the form of this keris .

23rd October 2006, 05:07 AM	#25
The Double D Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: On the banks of Cut Bank Creek, Montana Posts: 189	Don't stay up after bed time and type... Of course what I meant to type was vise jaw made from a file and not make for a file. I have corrected it. ...and English is my first language...okay American is my first language!

23rd October 2006, 07:27 AM	#26
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	File or vise? May I suggest that you look at this pattern under magnification, Lew. There are criss-cross lines with a diamond between. If the lines are impressed and the diamond higher than the lines, I think we are looking at a file. If the diamond is impressed and the lines are higher than the diamond, I think we are looking at a vise imprint. Have a look at the jaws on a metalworking vise and you'll see what I mean. Regarding the different colour and texture of the edges. A keris blade is not normally tempered. It is taken to critical, and then quenched to harden it. The tempering that reduces the hardness of a blade to minimise risk of fracture is not normally done with a keris blade. However, there is another way to minimise risk of fracture, and that is to ensure that only the point and the edges go to critical, whilst the center of the blade stays below critical. This is not such a big trick to do, if you harden by passing the blade through a live flame, and quench as soon as the edges get to critical, which of course is going to happen a lot sooner than the center getting to critical, because the edges and point are thinner.The result is that only the edges have undergone the structural change that makes steel hard, and only those edges are going show the characteristic darkness, and long term erosion associated with hardened steel. Result:- hard edges, softer center; a similar result to what would have been achieved if one had drawn.