Kris & Sundang twist core Ganja or Gonjo

[Gavin Nugent]

We have all seen very many beautiful old twist core Kris and Sundang blades in these pages but little attention beyond the main body of the blade.

I note many have a plain ganja or gonjo.

Attached is the underside of a twistie Gonjo on a Malay Sundang.

I'd be very interested to view other types of the twistie nature.

[CharlesS]

Certainly interesting Gavin, but is it possible to get better pics, and see it in relationship to the entire blade?

[David]

Technically, if this is indeed a Malay sundang, discussion of it probably belongs on the Keris Forum. You may get a different attention over there. I will discuss this with my co-mod, Rick.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Certainly interesting Gavin, but is it possible to get better pics, and see it in relationship to the entire blade?

Charles, I'll work on better Gonjo pics when I next have it out, a twistie profile shot wouldn't go astray.
I'll keep the images specific to this area though as it is only this aspect of the Sundangs and Kris that I wish to discuss....but only if they are twistcore.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

Technically, if this is indeed a Malay sundang, discussion of it probably belongs on the Keris Forum. You may get a different attention over there. I will discuss this with my co-mod, Rick.

Hi David,

I thought about posting there but offered the question up here as Kris far outweigh Sundang in these pages, especially twist core examples. If the trait is found to be only Sundang specific, then it might be worth dropping it in a little later...for now I am hoping any twist core owners are viewing their collections with more interest...see what comes out if anything as I am very sure it is not very common.

[Emanuel]

Hello,

Keris gonjo is made by cutting a piece of material from the blade forging, as shown in the video posted here, so the gonjo should be of the same pattern-welded material as the blade.

If this forging method is also common to Malay pieces, then I would expect the twistcore gonjo to be fairly common to most twistcore sundang

I will be sure to may more attention to the gonjo from now on.

Emanuel

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Emanuel.

I do find this area of Kris, Sundang and Keris very interesting.

I am not smith but there are some very tricky methods used to obtain some very beautiful and amazing Gonjo that are often overlooked...some no matter how hard I look, I cannot fathom how they were made, equally so for the blades.

With regards to the initial image presented, visually, to me, this appears to be a good insight in to twistcore manufacture well before final forging, a thick non flattened twistcore cross section. Ric may be able to chime in here too.

Lets see what comes out of the Twistie collectors collections.

[Gustav]

Gavin, you surely have found this:

www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8087

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you Gustav,

I did see this through twistcore searches. I am surprised the discussion ended there.

I saw a hint of twistcore Gonjo in this rare example that Maurice presented, post #25.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...stcore+Sundang

These two and mine also all share a similar chevron layering at the base of the blade or differing quality.

Of all the Moro Twistcore Kris I viewed within these pages, I could not find one twisted Gonjo.

So David, until such time a Moro example is placed here, this might suit you better in the Keris forum

[David]

Well then, let's see if this thread gets any traction here on the keris forum since this is technically an Indonesian Keris.
As was suggested earlier i believe, more images would probably be helpful to the discussion.

[A. G. Maisey]

I suggest that adequate photos of the item under discussion would help a lot.

Personally I cannot see sufficient from the posted photo to permit me to make any comment.

A full length photo of the entire keris + a close-up of the sorsoran including gonjo + a close up of the complete top and complete side of the gonjo, all photos taken in full shade would perhaps give sufficiently clear images to permit comment.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks David,

See what comes about this specific aspect of these Sundang types.

Gustav was good enough to bring one forth from Michael’s earlier postings...that conversation didn't amount to much after presenting the entire piece...Hopefully it might gain traction now 5 years on.
I have linked the other twistie Gongo, albeit an unclear image shown in the thread...

Other Twist core Sundang Gonjo (Or a Kris if it exists) would be more helpful to the discussion about twistcore Gonjo.

Here is the face pattern.

[VVV]

Back home again with my swords...
I have now checked all my twist core Moro Kris and Malay Keris Sundang and none, except the one in the link above, have any twist core ganja.
I find this a bit surprising because some of my Moro kris are quite old and otherwise "Keris-like".

Michael

[Gavin Nugent]

It is a strange thing Michael...I am sure that there would have been twist core off cuts available at the forge with which to make Moro Kris Ganja....

[A. G. Maisey]

From these small, incomplete images it is very difficult to form any opinion, but I think I can say that this gonjo was not made from any off-cut, it was very probably made as a separate forging, specifically for the gonjo.

When we make this type of pamor it tends to distort badly under forging, there are a couple of tricks that can be used to reduce this effect, but to take a piece of pattern welded material such as has been used in the core of this large blade, and bring it down to the size needed for a gonjo forging would cause very heavy distortion, and in the areas of pamor that have been presented for comment, I cannot see any such heavy distortion.

[Jean]

Excellent observation Alan, I agree and have noted the same with some recent javanese or madurese krisses also.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jean, that is a distinct possibility, but because we can only see a small part of a small part of this complete blade I do not want to make indefensible statements or conjectures.