Kindjal???

Kubur · 2nd November 2014, 05:06 PM

Dear All,

I would like to know what do you think about this kindjal?
It's not mine, but I think this kindjal is a little bit more original than the others...
All metal with stones, Arabic inscriptions on the scabbard and a good blade...
I guess experts prefer the kindjal with horn grips, the classical ones?
Just need opinions...thanks

Regards,
Kubur

TVV · 3rd November 2014, 08:11 PM

The fittings look recent and poorly made to me

. I think I may have seen this item on eBay. Personally, I would not want it.

Teodor

Kubur · 4th November 2014, 12:26 AM

MMMM i found another one the same style and with again an old blade.
I dont think that the fittings are more recent!

ALEX · 4th November 2014, 09:42 AM

Kubur, what makes you think that the fittings are not more recent? Are you comparing them (and item as a whole) with well-known and documented examples, noticing workmanship and execution techniques, quality details,etc., or making an assumption based on another similarly-looking dagger?

Martin Lubojacky · 4th November 2014, 10:40 AM

I know nearly nothink about kinjals but my. in this case laic observation (after a very quic look): As far as the first kinjal is concerned: probably old blade was combined with copy, or better said substitute of old fittings. There are nicks in the blade just below the handle. This could be supportive voucher....

Kubur · 4th November 2014, 11:24 AM

Thank you Martin, very useful comment!
And it looks the same on the second kindjal, with traces of smelting.
It is interesting to trace a 'school' of fakes...

Oliver Pinchot · 4th November 2014, 08:22 PM

The mounts are Ottoman provincial work, c. 1920. The most obvious indicator is the tugra on the locket. That this and the other example pictured are fitted with older blades is not in question; huge numbers of Circassian and other Caucasian groups emigrated to the Ottoman Empire en masse in and after 1865, so these blades were readily available.

Rather, the question is whether they were intended for tourist consumption. I would argue that they are, based upon the quality of workmanship, or lack thereof. Daggers of this form were still very much in use in the 1920s, and there are sufficient examples on the market, mounted in iron, brass, or silver, which show a broad range of decorative techniques typical of Ottoman smiths. These, however, are not among them.

Martin Lubojacky · 5th November 2014, 09:32 AM

Hi Oliver,
One can see tugra on the cars running in Turkey nowadays, which does not mean they are from twenties. Also based on the stones and their polish I would say it is more or less modern product combined with original blade - for tourist/"collectors" market.
Regards,
Martin

ariel · 7th November 2014, 01:54 PM

The blade of the first one is secured in the handle by some kind of glue. Definitely not a Caucasian technique, unless they invented epoxy in the 19th century :-)

Jokes aside, I think it is a contemporary work, older blade, newer rest of it. The stones are atrocious, IMHO: totally out of context, totally reminiscent of the current Syrian or S. Aravian souvenir manufacture.

2nd November 2014, 05:06 PM	#1
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Kindjal??? Dear All, I would like to know what do you think about this kindjal? It's not mine, but I think this kindjal is a little bit more original than the others... All metal with stones, Arabic inscriptions on the scabbard and a good blade... I guess experts prefer the kindjal with horn grips, the classical ones? Just need opinions...thanks Regards, Kubur Attached Images

4th November 2014, 12:26 AM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	MMMM i found another one the same style and with again an old blade. I dont think that the fittings are more recent! Attached Images

3rd November 2014, 08:11 PM	#2
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,621	The fittings look recent and poorly made to me . I think I may have seen this item on eBay. Personally, I would not want it. Teodor

4th November 2014, 09:42 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Kubur, what makes you think that the fittings are not more recent? Are you comparing them (and item as a whole) with well-known and documented examples, noticing workmanship and execution techniques, quality details,etc., or making an assumption based on another similarly-looking dagger?

4th November 2014, 10:40 AM	#5
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	I know nearly nothink about kinjals but my. in this case laic observation (after a very quic look): As far as the first kinjal is concerned: probably old blade was combined with copy, or better said substitute of old fittings. There are nicks in the blade just below the handle. This could be supportive voucher....

4th November 2014, 11:24 AM	#6
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thank you Martin, very useful comment! And it looks the same on the second kindjal, with traces of smelting. It is interesting to trace a 'school' of fakes...

4th November 2014, 08:22 PM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	The mounts are Ottoman provincial work, c. 1920. The most obvious indicator is the tugra on the locket. That this and the other example pictured are fitted with older blades is not in question; huge numbers of Circassian and other Caucasian groups emigrated to the Ottoman Empire en masse in and after 1865, so these blades were readily available. Rather, the question is whether they were intended for tourist consumption. I would argue that they are, based upon the quality of workmanship, or lack thereof. Daggers of this form were still very much in use in the 1920s, and there are sufficient examples on the market, mounted in iron, brass, or silver, which show a broad range of decorative techniques typical of Ottoman smiths. These, however, are not among them.

5th November 2014, 09:32 AM	#8
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 841	Hi Oliver, One can see tugra on the cars running in Turkey nowadays, which does not mean they are from twenties. Also based on the stones and their polish I would say it is more or less modern product combined with original blade - for tourist/"collectors" market. Regards, Martin

7th November 2014, 01:54 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	The blade of the first one is secured in the handle by some kind of glue. Definitely not a Caucasian technique, unless they invented epoxy in the 19th century :-) Jokes aside, I think it is a contemporary work, older blade, newer rest of it. The stones are atrocious, IMHO: totally out of context, totally reminiscent of the current Syrian or S. Aravian souvenir manufacture.