African ethno sabre for coments

[fernando]

It took me over four months and lots of complications to get this piece out of Customs ... result of the recent Portuguese arms law. So the nowadays collecting saga is all over, Gentlemen .
It was bought as being a work of the Dogon, from Bamba Mali, dated 19th century or earlier. No doubt the influence of an European sabre. The blade is crude, beaten work, probably rought iron (?). The bronze hilt is rather interesting; i wonder what kind of animal would that be, in the pommel ... or is it a fantasy ?
The leather scabbard, with some decoration, is in a fragile condition; extremely shrunk, not wise to fit in the sword any more ... but is the real thing though.

Coments will so much welcome.

Fernando

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[Lew]

Fernando

I love the hilt it's a very nice unique sword definately West African.

Congrats

Lew

[colin henshaw]

Very interesting piece, I have not seen a similar - the sword certainly has a Bambara or Dogon look. The handle probably represents a hyena, as do some Bambara masks...

I assume the inspiration would be a French army officer's sword.

Regards

[Martin Lubojacky]

The pommel (bird head ?) is very interesting. I think you can find similar swords (sabres) in Sahel region cca from N´Djamena further to the west.

[Tim Simmons]

Very nice. The pommel may be a representation of a Hornbill bird which have great significance in Burkina Faso and other sahel regions. There are also similarities to the bird of prophecy relevant to parts of present day nigeria. I feel it is from further west of Nigeria.

Google Hornbill cults Burkina Faso.

[Freddy]

Nice sword.

Tim is probably right.

Perhaps it's the type of sword as was used by the female warriors (amazones) from the kingdom of Dahomey. Their king was called the 'Fon'. These women were called 'Ahosi'. They were the king's personal bodyguard and rather fierce.
More about these women can be read in 'African Arms and Armour' by Christopher Spring.

Here's an old postcard with some of these (already older) women. They all wear sabres.

[katana]

Hi Fernando,
interesting sword. The zoomorphic pommel looks, to me, more reptilian. The lizard, in African mythology, especially in the West, is associated with death. According to the myth 'God' sent a chameleon with the message of eternal life for all, however a faster agile lizard was sent with the message of death. The Chameleon was delayed and the lizard arrived first, delivered the message and the matter settled, dooming mankind with death.

Perhaps, the symbolism of the 'messenger of death' is more apt for a sword ?

The 'eye socket' of the head looks as if there was something mounted there...to represent the eye...now missing?

Kind Regards David

[fernando]

Thanks everybody for the input. Nice to know you people find this piece interesting.
Thank you Tim for the hornbill culture and Freddy for the interesting Ahosi postcard and allusion.
However i am glad David came up with the lizard idea; just because i can acomodate better to that . The hiena and hornbill possibilities would only match (in my mind), providing the artisan had a rather free hand, applying some fantasy to the actual anatomy of such specimens ... a nose too long for the hiena and too large eyebrows (or ears ?) for the hornbill. Of course this a layman's impression; i now nothing, comparing to your people's experienced knowledge.
Concerning the guy's eyes, David, i find it dificult to establish with (my) pictures but, i am convinced that those cavities were originaly meant to be empty. Then again, no absolutes.
But we can say this hilt has a certain artistic touch, can't we ?
If some further coment occurs, Gentlemen, please feel free to post, will you ?
... like another zoomorphic interpretation for the pommel ?
Thanks
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

This very interesting sabre seems logically attributed to the Dogon, who are from Upper Volta (Burkina Faso) and Mali, as I am inclined to think the zoomorphic hilt resembles a hyena because of the canine snout and rounded ears. It seems that the Dogon do have a temple in Mali dedicated to the hyena, but more detailed significance is unclear. It does not seem that these animals play an important part in Dogon lore, but it is known that in some regions it is in fact a cult animal. Many African secret societies use totemic figures such as leopard, crocodile etc. However, it seems that often in observing African art and material culture, figures are often representative rather than representational, as noted in the hornbill article mentioned by Tim. Therefore, highly stylized images are difficult to identify with certainty in the many variations of ceremonial masks, and clearly as seen here with the pommel of this sword.

Tim and Freddy are the authorities here on African art and weapons, and thier suggestions are of course well placed, as are the others, and as noted it is difficult to determine what creature is represented. This seems to often be the case with many zoomorphic hilts, as in the 'flyssa' which it seems to me most likely the camel suggestion works best (but then you should see the results of my Rohrshach tests!!

It is worthy of note that in Ghana, there is a hyena god in the Ga tribal pantheon, and among the Korumba (Nioniasi) there is a hyena mask worn by one of the dancers in ceremony with other dancers wearing similarly stylized antelope head masks. The Korumba apparantly were driven north to Burkina Faso regions by invading Dogon in earlier times.

Whatever the case, this sabre does seem to be West African, clearly imitating European styled swords and likely intended as a prestige or regalia piece of significance.

[Jim McDougall]

Whoa!! I guess Fernando just posted more pictures!!
Well...the hyena is out, the Rohrshach aint workin' and the 60's are over!! so I dont know what this could be.
Great sabre though! and seems most likely West African as noted.

[fernando]

Allright Jim,
Let me go back to square one and digest all that material !!!
A million thanks.
Lots of health.
Fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Whoa!! I guess Fernando just posted more pictures!!
Well...the hyena is out, the Rohrshach aint workin' and the 60's are over!! so I dont know what this could be.
Great sabre though! and seems most likely West African as noted.

Crossed posts.
Back again to the lizard theory ?

[katana]

Originally Posted by fernando

Crossed posts.
Back again to the lizard theory ?

Or the cobra ??? Looks like a hooded Cobra from this angle

David

[Jim McDougall]

Wow David! I saw that too, but was way into Rohrshach flashes at that point
A nagan Amazon sabre from West Africa?

I think it goes back to the very well put note in the 'hornbill' article that Tim linked, basically that stylized creatures in African material culture are representative...not representational. Sounds like wordplay, but I interpret that to mean that often African, or for that matter, many ethnographic weapons have stylized designs or shapes that carry more of a temporal image than deliberate likeness of certain creatures important in tradition or folklore. Perhaps Tim will either agree with or correct my interpretation here, as he is the artist

As I mentioned, the zoomorphic creature on the pommel of the flyssa escapes any tangible image; the trilobate hilt of the karabela on Polish and Turkish parade sabres, carried into Arabian sa'if's is believed to be an eagle head; the hook on many sabre hilts is thought to be a birds beak; and the imagery goes on even much more colorfully in Indonesian and Southeast Asian weapons.

I think all that material I posted, Fernando, was sort of a 'wild goose chase' (using even more zoomorphic metaphor!, but I think we can be pretty sure this is as noted West African, and likely some sort of tribal regalia type piece.If I can ever remember where I saw one like this, maybe it will have more information, or perhaps it remained in the same impasse.

[Tim Simmons]

Jim you are to kind and to my mind right about the African iconography. I am without my PC so I cannot follow up with more information and pics. I have been trying to find stuff I post on the old forum about the hornbill knives I have. I believe in this example we just see exagerated eye sockects for poping round eyes these and other more forward looking birds tend to have in relation to small birds with more side vission if that makes sense. The hornbill image is found on many objects like loom pulleys as well as large sculpture in the round. It does not look dog like to me or aggressive.

[katana]

Hi Jim,
the snake is a dominant icon in African mythology. (especially in the West and the Voodoo religion which was 'exported' due to the slave trade.)

"....The demi-god Aidophedo of the West African Ashanti is also a serpent biting its own tail. In Dahomey mythology of Benin in West Africa, the serpent that supports everything on its many coils was named Dan. In the Vodou of Benin and Haiti Ayida-Weddo (a.k.a. Aida-Wedo, Aido Quedo, "Rainbow-Serpent") is a spirit of fertility, rainbows and snakes, and a companion or wife to Dan, the father of all spirits. As Vodou was exported to Haiti through the slave trade Dan became Danballah, Damballah or Damballah-Wedo...."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)

".....Mythological snakes that act as forces of good have various roles, such as creating the world, protecting it, or helping humans. Stories of the Fon people of West Africa tell of Da, a serpent whose 3,500 coils support the cosmic ocean in which the earth floats. Another 3,500 of its coils support the sky. Humans occasionally catch a glimpse of many-colored Da in a rainbow or in light reflected on the surface of water.,,,,"
http://www.mythencyclopedia.com/Sa-S...nd-Snakes.html

The other interesting thing is that the Cobra only displays its 'hood' when under threat or about to strike, ideal sybolism for a sword ? The display is to warn a possible attacker of its intent, on occasions this is usually enough and the aggressor 'backs off'. (possibly, again, good symbolism on a sword)

There are instances whereby zoomorphic decoration is a combination of two or more identities. It may be possible in this case. Looking at the pommel (at the angle which suggests cobra) there is a strong hint of an elephant. The pommel from the side (to me) looks reptilian with high brow ridges. Here could be the 'combination' of two seperate talismatic creatures. Symbolically, as each creature is identifiable individually (depending on the view point) their powers are not diluted by the other....and yet they 'exist' in one form. This 'insures' that the talismatic 'power' is greater than the 'sum of its parts', due to their 'co-existance' .......a possibility

All the best
Regards David

[Tim Simmons]

David, I like the snake idea except the Hooded Cobra is and Asian spieces. I am not sure we are looking at an African forest Cobra.

http://www.kingsnake.com/elapids/forest_cobra.htm

Snakes are indeed very special spirit messangers in most of Africa

[katana]

Hi Tim,
The forest Cobra is a possibillity, nearly all cobra's have the ability to 'create' the 'hood' ...muscular movements extends the underlying long, movable ribs, and then is inflated with air from the lungs...the 'hood' is to give the impression that they are larger to potential agressors

http://zoltantakacs.com/zt/tv/04ng/s...bum.php?idx=17


"...The Forest Cobra is the second largest species of Cobra on earth. The RainForests of western Africa are home to this large predator, reaching lengths of over 7 feet this Cobra can deliver a very powerful bite to any would-be predator. Not afraid to stand their ground, the Forest Cobra is often regarded as an aggressive species in captivity...."

Other African species include the Red Spitting Cobra and one of Africa's largest Cobras, the African Black Spitting Cobra (can reach up to 7 feet in length) and are extremely aggressive in the wild. Both I believe are the 'hooded' variety.


Kind Regards David

[fernando]

All right,
I have come to observe strong sympthoms that (at least) the Malian fancied stylizing their figures, like elongating the snouts of the animals, in their "representational" decorations. Look at the snout and ears of these antelopes, crafted by the Bambara, used in helmets, masks and headresses.
Also "mixed" figures may be seen, sugesting half antelopes colated to half crocodiles.
For some reasons practically all these and several other images shown in this collection don't have eyes, but well pronounced ears instead.
If this tendence were the same as the one applied to the figure of my sword, those cavities being ears and not eyes, the animal "representationed" would be something like the hyena,quicker than the lizard and much quicker than a bird.
But what do i know?
Fernando

[Jim McDougall]

David, excellent compilation of material on the cobras, and the more I look at this, the more the hooded cobra image seems logical. Fernandos addition of the extremely compelling stylization of the antelope corresponds to those illustrations I have seen of these masks in Mali.
I think it is important to reemphasize the concept of 'representation' in the stylized images of sometimes hybridized creatures, in this case in African material culture including weapons. Ideally, we have hoped to identify this sabre by linking the stylized zoomorphic image on the pommel to creatures significant to certain tribes in certain regions.

Although there are compelling suggestions to what creature this pommel might be, without a provenanced example to corroborate where exactly this sword might be from, we cannot be certain. The overall style seems to resemble the regalia type swords seen in a number of instances in West African and Sahelian regions, and the hanger type swords seen in the work by Bivar on Nigerian arms and armour (thanks Tim are good examples.

[katana]

Two art forms showing the snake, the first is from the Baga, late 19thC the interesting thing is the head .... and seems to represent the hood of a cobra.
The second is definately a Cobra, made of brass, late 19thC early 20th from Cameroon


Regards David

[Gavin Nugent]

I have been following this gorgeous piece within this posting closely and would like to offer up the jackal. In particular the golden jackal of Egypt resembles the head very closely. The Jackal has been in African and in particular Egyptian mythos for thousands of years. It is a very rare and desirable sword, worth treasuring.

Gav

PS I do like the arrangement of your collectables shown in the cannon post.

[fernando]

Thank you all Getlemen, for this on-going flow of postings.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Although there are compelling suggestions to what creature this pommel might be, without a provenanced example to corroborate where exactly this sword might be from, we cannot be certain ...

Your'e quite right, Jim; but let me quote the whole info provided by Ashoka Arts, in its commercial site, about this piece's origin:

19th century Dogon sword from village of Bamba Mali, it was purchased from Samba Kamissoko in 1998. Clearly influenced by the shape of European military swords of the period, this piece has a cast bronze hilt in the stylised form of an animal with knucleguard and downturned quillon. Complete with its leather scabbard. 32 inches approximately. 19th century or earlier, Mali/Sahel.

My i then admit that, untill contrary evidence, this is a Dogon work; at least and so far, i haven't yet registered vivid opposition to that, from the posting members ... if i'm not mistaken.
... and, as Jim reminds, an (unusual) piece of regalia; possibly having belonged to a Dogon big shot ... if not made to trade with the white man ?!

In the meantime i browsed the Net on the Dogon; they are said to descend from the Egiptions, and are a tribe that exists since 3000 BC ... whether a fact or a legend.

I have also had an opinnion that the misterious animal in the pommel could be a crocodile. This is not at all unplausible, both because its shape is not so distant frrom a croc skull, and also due to these reptiles being sacred to Dogons.
I have read that,when they find a dead crocodile, they take it and bury it like a human in their graveyards up in the caves in the cliffs.

So the riddle continues unsolved ... or not ?

Fernando

Attached a Dogon crocodile mask

.

[chevalier]

the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by freebooter

... would like to offer up the jackal ... has been in African and in particular Egyptian mythos for thousands of years ...

Thanks Gav. Also a good sugestion; i have read that, the jackal also has a previleged place in Dogon mithology.

Originally Posted by freebooter

... I do like the arrangement of your collectables shown in the cannon post ...

Thanks.


Fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by chevalier

the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

All doors are still open.
If we look at their mask typology, even mixes maybe seen; i have just seen a mask half monkey half hornbill.
But i also noticed that the ground hornbill, such one with the eye wattles, lives more to the east of Africa.
It could be a coincidence, but the majority of hornbills i see carved in Malian masks, are more the type represented with their bills strongly down curved ... certainly other variants.
Fernando

[fearn]

Hi All,

Interesting piece. Thought I'd throw a couple of observations in. First off, the hilt seems to appear to be a different critter depending on which way you look at it, so perhaps the relevant question is, which way was it intended to be observed? I'm guessing from the side, which would suggest it's not supposed to be a cobra.

Second observation: it's possible to get A bird list for Mali. There are three confirmed hornbill species for Mali, of which the Abysinnian Ground Hornbill appears to be the only resident. The picture from Wikipedia is attached. To me there is a resemblance between bird and hilt, but only from the side.

While I'm not going to argue that the hilt is solidly representational, I personally think it's more hornbillish than not. If you believe this website to the Dogon, the hornbill is a psychpomp (escort for the souls of the dead) that also stands for the continuance of human life. There's also artwork for snakes (such as the god Lebe), hyenas, and lizards, none of which are terribly representational. Still, to me it looks like a bird.

My 0.0000002 cents,

F

[Jim McDougall]

This really is an outstanding discussion guys!! Its great to see everyone bringing in such great suggestions and offering supporting evidence to be considered.
Gav, thats an excellent observation about the jackal, and I must admit that I thought of it when I first saw the sword, thinking of the jackal headed god in Egypt. I first thought that geographically unlikely, completely overlooking the ancient ancestry of the Dogon. Well done!

Chevalier, good to see you come in on this, and your support on the hornbill plausibility well placed concurring with Tim's notes.

Fearn, excellent observation, this image is definitely multifaceted as its identity seems to vary in accordance to angle of view. Absolutely fascinating information as well on the psychpomp, and the hornbill inclusion in the afterlife concept, which seems to correspond with the jackal god with similar purpose if I understand correctly. Thank you for the link.

David, excellent continuing support for the cobra plausibility !

Fernando, it does seem that Ashoka Arts has very well described the piece in an objective sense, and as you say, until stronger proof to the contrary is discovered, the Dogon attribution must stand. I think that it is fascinating to see everyone working together reaching further forensically into the possibilities, of which many seem to support the Dogon identification.

Gentlemen, if I may say so, this in my opinion is truly what the study of weapons is all about! It is great to keep learning more as we study each one, and ideas and shared information strengthen collectively the knowledge of us all. Whether decisively identified or not, this sword has served us well!!

Thank you guys

[fearn]

Glad you're enjoying this, Jim. I am too.

Here's another thought. Perhaps, instead of a cobra's hood, the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill.

See the attached pic. I didn't realize abyssinian ground hornbills were quite that weird. Mascara has nothing on them...

F

[fernando]

Hi Fearn, it's a pleasure seeing you coming in

Originally Posted by fearn

... the "hood" on the pommel are actually eyelashes on a hornbill...

It's precisely with the (Abyssinian) ground hornbill species that the bird possibility becomes stronger, i guess.

Originally Posted by chevalier

... the hilt still could be a representation of a ground hornbill, which has huge red wattles around its eyes.

Eventually i was misguided by a web site which mentioned that this bird exists in the area east to Uganda.

http://montereybay.com/creagrus/ground_hornbills.html

Fernando