Revolutionary War boarding cutlass

M ELEY · 2nd July 2011, 11:40 AM

Just purchased after selling off other items. Well worth it as these are rather rare. Classic primitive features make this example probably American. The flat disc hilt is even lop-sided, with the rolled iron quillon not lined up with the blade. A very nice example I am very happy to add to the collection. As an added benefit, it came from Peter Tuite's own collection (author of "U.S. Naval Officers: Their Swords and Dirks" plus a well-established authority in the field). These cutlasses border on the realm of folk-art sometimes-

http://www.navalswd.com/uploads/swor...cphpq88nmU.jpg

http://www.navalswd.com/uploads/swor...YphpgBjwql.jpg

fernando · 2nd July 2011, 01:32 PM

Hi Mark,
Very nice and interesting stuff

.
Listen, can you (or i) replace these links for directly uploaded pictures?
... You know, using the picture attachment features, images will be kept in the forum archives

M ELEY · 2nd July 2011, 08:26 PM

Hello Fernando,
Opps! I'm still "old school" when it comes to direct uploads except if they are from my own camera (these are from the site I bought the sword from). If it's not too much trouble, do you mind attaching them? Sorry for the inconvenience...

Hotspur · 2nd July 2011, 08:49 PM

If you right click your mouse, you can save the images in your documents (my pictures, if you like).

The list on Peter's site is quite nice and I have considered buying from his stuff. The book is terrific and a way to collect all those great swords in one volume.

Cheers

GC

fernando · 2nd July 2011, 09:18 PM

Great job GC

Neil · 2nd July 2011, 09:28 PM

Very nice sword. I had an early cutlass slip through my fingers recently and I am still dealing with the psychological trauma, haha. Seriously though, it hurts

, but I am happy for you.

M ELEY · 2nd July 2011, 10:22 PM

Thank you, Glenn, for posting these pics. I will try your suggestion next time (sounds too easy to me-

). I confess that I don't have his book yet, but hope to soon. Of course, his book concentrates mostly on officer's swords, while I am more of a rusty cutlass sort-of guy (i.e. Limited by income-

)

Sorry to hear you missed out on one of these, Neil. Pete still has several very nice cutlass of the era on his site, but they are not as we say "eBay-priced". You can get his site info from my original post if you need it...

For anyone who might be interested in references to these swords, see Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", examples 368.S, 369.S, 370.S, 371.S. Also, Gilkerson's "Boarders Away- With Steel", pg 77, 89-90.

The great thing about the more primitive types of swords from the Amer Rev is that they are mis-understood and bargains can still be had on occasion. I paid full price for mine, but it was worth it to me. Fills in that part of the collection I needed.

Hotspur · 3rd July 2011, 01:17 AM

I like this cutlass. I think there is a benefit at times going with prime dealers (auction or not) rather than obscure auction listings.

I am a real fan of the plainer swords as well and had gone out of my way a couple of times in going for the nco and common variety.

Cheers

GC

Dmitry · 4th July 2011, 04:52 AM

That is a good-looking cutlass. The blade is probably imported, the hilt may be American. If the antler handle turns out to be from an American species of deer, that would cement the attribution to the Colonies or early US. Martially-unmarked, it's ostensibly a private purchase. I have a similar example.

M ELEY · 5th July 2011, 04:22 AM

Thanks for responding, Dmitry. I hadn't thought about detecting what species the antler had come from. Definitely something I will try to look into. I do hope it's an American piece, as I lack one in my collection. BTW, Happy 4th, everyone...

laEspadaAncha · 5th July 2011, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

BTW, Happy 4th, everyone...

Yes... Happy 4th.

I thought about posting a "post-your-pictures" thread of early American weapons to commemorate the 4th. A little late now I guess, but maybe we can start such a thread early next 4th...

Nice cutlass BTW...

M ELEY · 6th July 2011, 06:10 AM

Sounds like a plan! Or perhaps for President's Day-

By shear coincidence, I was in a used bookstore today and saw a book on hunting. In it were 'uses for antler' and a brief run-down of their sources here. I was just thinking about common white-tail and mule deer and had forgotten about elk, moose and Canadian caribou. Hopefully, I might find someone who can help ID the hilt material soon.

Neil · 6th July 2011, 02:24 PM

I am quite familiar with white-tail deer as a hunter, and in my opinion that does not look like white-tail antler. Of course it is very difficult to say definitively from a photo. It is the coloration more than anything that makes me feel its from another animal, too red. Of course the lighting in the photo may be deceptive, or aging and or environmental conditions may be a factor as well.

M ELEY · 7th July 2011, 12:28 AM

I agree, Neil, which is why when Dmitry brought up this important point, I got a little worried. It doesn't look like typical deer, but I've seen stag antlers weathered outside that looks like this. I read an article on moose anters that specifically says that the horn can take on an orange color. One site had caribou antler that had been stained (a popular process even back in colonial times with green-stained ivory hilts, stained shagreen wrap, etc.). This really leads me back to the beginning, as all the different types of antler listed above kinda looks the same after you've been looking at examples for awhile (and moose, caribou, deer, etc, are also found throughout Europe and below the Artic Circle.). I'll possibly take it to the local university and see if one of the biology profs might be able to identify it based on texture, mass, etc. In any case, even if it proves to be European, it's of the period, naval, and STILL could have been a captured piece, import, or family heirloom used by colonists (half of Neumann's book supports this fact). I guess we'll see...

Neil · 7th July 2011, 03:36 AM

Going to the university sounds like great idea, good luck.

M ELEY · 7th July 2011, 01:00 PM

Until further info comes in. Canadian moose were found in Michigan, upper state NY, Minnesota, and parts of northern New England.

M ELEY · 7th July 2011, 01:10 PM

Typical whitetail deer antlers with orangy color near the base. White tail of this period exclusive to the U.S. One must consider if the coloration of the hilt is also a result of aging...

M ELEY · 7th July 2011, 01:14 PM

This is a Roosevelt elk from the American northwest. I know this area wasn't traveled back in the day, but traders had gone that route and there was trade from the Pacific shore with the local native Americans, so ? Note the orange antlers.

M ELEY · 7th July 2011, 01:19 PM

The last pic is too big to load. It's of an Eurasian elk, the European equivellent of the N. American moose. It's antlers are as orange as the Roosevelt elk above. During the time-period we are talking about, they were found in Finland, Sweden, and parts of Russia. To my knowledge, these countries did not have naval cutlass of the pattern we are discussing (the flat single disc type). Gilkerson seems to indicate that this pattern was seen in Britain/U.K. No Eurasian elk there, so ?

Neil · 7th July 2011, 03:33 PM

Just a thought to consider. I think your picture of the Elk was quite possibly taken soon after its velvet was shed from its new rack giving it a relatively short lived abnormally red coloration. It is my understanding that blood vessels in the antlers are very active during the annual antler growth period which ends when the velvet shell is rubbed off. I believe the color mellows to brown and tan as the season progresses.

M ELEY · 8th July 2011, 07:33 AM

Interesting point. I did some research and you are correct about the color. Hmmm... The Eurasian elk and moose seem to be the only other candidates, as I don't see any goat, ram or other animal with reddened orange antler-type horns.

Hotspur · 8th July 2011, 11:16 PM

The cross section looks like elk to me. Flatter and kind of a rounded triangular shape. I had half a rack of one some decades ago and a friend cutler devoured it entirely in a manner of days. The base near the crown is much like what we see on the cutlass.

Cheers

GC

M ELEY · 9th July 2011, 09:43 AM

That was the opinion I was leaning toward (a friend of mine here in NC thought the same). That was good news to me at first, as the common definition of 'elk' are of the species found either here in North America or in Asia. But then I started worrying about the so-called and closely related "red deer" common in Europe. With some research here, I found out that although similar, the antler of red deer are as rough and furrowed as tree bark whereas American elks are smooth. This factor seemed to clear some up some of the mystery until I read that elk live west of the Rockies and up into British Columbia, not exactly an area populated by the early colonists at the time. More research awaits...

(edit)- I just read that elk lived throughout the Great Lakes region, though Kentucky down to Louisiana and westward to the Pasific coast during colonial times. It was only into the 19th century that their numbers were decimated and they now reside west of the Rockies. Sad testament to time, but I think this cinches it that the hilt is elk antler from here-

2nd July 2011, 11:40 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Revolutionary War boarding cutlass Just purchased after selling off other items. Well worth it as these are rather rare. Classic primitive features make this example probably American. The flat disc hilt is even lop-sided, with the rolled iron quillon not lined up with the blade. A very nice example I am very happy to add to the collection. As an added benefit, it came from Peter Tuite's own collection (author of "U.S. Naval Officers: Their Swords and Dirks" plus a well-established authority in the field). These cutlasses border on the realm of folk-art sometimes- http://www.navalswd.com/uploads/swor...cphpq88nmU.jpg http://www.navalswd.com/uploads/swor...YphpgBjwql.jpg

2nd July 2011, 08:49 PM	#4
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	If you right click your mouse, you can save the images in your documents (my pictures, if you like). The list on Peter's site is quite nice and I have considered buying from his stuff. The book is terrific and a way to collect all those great swords in one volume. Cheers GC Attached Images

5th July 2011, 04:22 AM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Happy Independence Day, all- Thanks for responding, Dmitry. I hadn't thought about detecting what species the antler had come from. Definitely something I will try to look into. I do hope it's an American piece, as I lack one in my collection. BTW, Happy 4th, everyone...

7th July 2011, 01:00 PM	#16
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	The likely suspects... Until further info comes in. Canadian moose were found in Michigan, upper state NY, Minnesota, and parts of northern New England. Attached Images

7th July 2011, 01:10 PM	#17
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Typical whitetail deer antlers with orangy color near the base. White tail of this period exclusive to the U.S. One must consider if the coloration of the hilt is also a result of aging... Attached Images

2nd July 2011, 01:32 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Mark, Very nice and interesting stuff . Listen, can you (or i) replace these links for directly uploaded pictures? ... You know, using the picture attachment features, images will be kept in the forum archives

2nd July 2011, 08:26 PM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Hello Fernando, Opps! I'm still "old school" when it comes to direct uploads except if they are from my own camera (these are from the site I bought the sword from). If it's not too much trouble, do you mind attaching them? Sorry for the inconvenience...

2nd July 2011, 09:18 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Great job GC

2nd July 2011, 09:28 PM	#6
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Very nice sword. I had an early cutlass slip through my fingers recently and I am still dealing with the psychological trauma, haha. Seriously though, it hurts , but I am happy for you.

2nd July 2011, 10:22 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Thank you, Glenn, for posting these pics. I will try your suggestion next time (sounds too easy to me- ). I confess that I don't have his book yet, but hope to soon. Of course, his book concentrates mostly on officer's swords, while I am more of a rusty cutlass sort-of guy (i.e. Limited by income- ) Sorry to hear you missed out on one of these, Neil. Pete still has several very nice cutlass of the era on his site, but they are not as we say "eBay-priced". You can get his site info from my original post if you need it... For anyone who might be interested in references to these swords, see Neumann's "Swords and Blades of the American Revolution", examples 368.S, 369.S, 370.S, 371.S. Also, Gilkerson's "Boarders Away- With Steel", pg 77, 89-90. The great thing about the more primitive types of swords from the Amer Rev is that they are mis-understood and bargains can still be had on occasion. I paid full price for mine, but it was worth it to me. Fills in that part of the collection I needed.

3rd July 2011, 01:17 AM	#8
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	I like this cutlass. I think there is a benefit at times going with prime dealers (auction or not) rather than obscure auction listings. I am a real fan of the plainer swords as well and had gone out of my way a couple of times in going for the nco and common variety. Cheers GC

4th July 2011, 04:52 AM	#9
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	That is a good-looking cutlass. The blade is probably imported, the hilt may be American. If the antler handle turns out to be from an American species of deer, that would cement the attribution to the Colonies or early US. Martially-unmarked, it's ostensibly a private purchase. I have a similar example.

6th July 2011, 06:10 AM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Sounds like a plan! Or perhaps for President's Day- By shear coincidence, I was in a used bookstore today and saw a book on hunting. In it were 'uses for antler' and a brief run-down of their sources here. I was just thinking about common white-tail and mule deer and had forgotten about elk, moose and Canadian caribou. Hopefully, I might find someone who can help ID the hilt material soon.

6th July 2011, 02:24 PM	#13
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	I am quite familiar with white-tail deer as a hunter, and in my opinion that does not look like white-tail antler. Of course it is very difficult to say definitively from a photo. It is the coloration more than anything that makes me feel its from another animal, too red. Of course the lighting in the photo may be deceptive, or aging and or environmental conditions may be a factor as well.

7th July 2011, 12:28 AM	#14
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	I agree, Neil, which is why when Dmitry brought up this important point, I got a little worried. It doesn't look like typical deer, but I've seen stag antlers weathered outside that looks like this. I read an article on moose anters that specifically says that the horn can take on an orange color. One site had caribou antler that had been stained (a popular process even back in colonial times with green-stained ivory hilts, stained shagreen wrap, etc.). This really leads me back to the beginning, as all the different types of antler listed above kinda looks the same after you've been looking at examples for awhile (and moose, caribou, deer, etc, are also found throughout Europe and below the Artic Circle.). I'll possibly take it to the local university and see if one of the biology profs might be able to identify it based on texture, mass, etc. In any case, even if it proves to be European, it's of the period, naval, and STILL could have been a captured piece, import, or family heirloom used by colonists (half of Neumann's book supports this fact). I guess we'll see...

7th July 2011, 03:36 AM	#15
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Going to the university sounds like great idea, good luck.

7th July 2011, 01:14 PM	#18
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	This is a Roosevelt elk from the American northwest. I know this area wasn't traveled back in the day, but traders had gone that route and there was trade from the Pacific shore with the local native Americans, so ? Note the orange antlers. Attached Images

7th July 2011, 01:19 PM	#19
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	The last pic is too big to load. It's of an Eurasian elk, the European equivellent of the N. American moose. It's antlers are as orange as the Roosevelt elk above. During the time-period we are talking about, they were found in Finland, Sweden, and parts of Russia. To my knowledge, these countries did not have naval cutlass of the pattern we are discussing (the flat single disc type). Gilkerson seems to indicate that this pattern was seen in Britain/U.K. No Eurasian elk there, so ?

7th July 2011, 03:33 PM	#20
Neil Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 109	Just a thought to consider. I think your picture of the Elk was quite possibly taken soon after its velvet was shed from its new rack giving it a relatively short lived abnormally red coloration. It is my understanding that blood vessels in the antlers are very active during the annual antler growth period which ends when the velvet shell is rubbed off. I believe the color mellows to brown and tan as the season progresses.

8th July 2011, 07:33 AM	#21
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Interesting point. I did some research and you are correct about the color. Hmmm... The Eurasian elk and moose seem to be the only other candidates, as I don't see any goat, ram or other animal with reddened orange antler-type horns.

8th July 2011, 11:16 PM	#22
Hotspur Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Nipmuc USA Posts: 498	The cross section looks like elk to me. Flatter and kind of a rounded triangular shape. I had half a rack of one some decades ago and a friend cutler devoured it entirely in a manner of days. The base near the crown is much like what we see on the cutlass. Cheers GC

9th July 2011, 09:43 AM	#23
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	That was the opinion I was leaning toward (a friend of mine here in NC thought the same). That was good news to me at first, as the common definition of 'elk' are of the species found either here in North America or in Asia. But then I started worrying about the so-called and closely related "red deer" common in Europe. With some research here, I found out that although similar, the antler of red deer are as rough and furrowed as tree bark whereas American elks are smooth. This factor seemed to clear some up some of the mystery until I read that elk live west of the Rockies and up into British Columbia, not exactly an area populated by the early colonists at the time. More research awaits... (edit)- I just read that elk lived throughout the Great Lakes region, though Kentucky down to Louisiana and westward to the Pasific coast during colonial times. It was only into the 19th century that their numbers were decimated and they now reside west of the Rockies. Sad testament to time, but I think this cinches it that the hilt is elk antler from here-