Keris blade styles

[Green]

Hi all;

I'm Malaysian but like the great majority of us we are quite ignorant about our own heritage particularly about Keris. I'm beginning to take an interest and have 6 keris in my collection now but very much a novice when it comes to finer details and knowledge about this fascinating weapon.

This forum helps me a lot in understanding aspects of keris but I see that it is more Indonesian centric, which is absolutely fine by me.

I'm planning to go and visit 'panday besi' in Kelantan , Malaysia next week and I don't want to look too ignorant so I hope some of you can explain something about the following:-

1) the styles of blades associated with Malaysian keris that they referred to as a) Maleulla, b)pandai saras c) tok chu d) charita? e) others?. Some of these may also be Indonesian style but Im not sure.

2) Any tips to identify old and new blades?

Thank you very much and looking forward to your help.

[Rick]

Welcome to the forums Green .
When I checked in this morning to moderate posts I inadvertently deleted your other post .

Could you please re-post that one ?
My apologies .

[David]

Welcome to the forum Green.
I think that the emphasis lands on Indonesia and more specifically Jawa because that is the birth place of the keris. But we certainly deal with Malay side keris quite a lot. You will find much in our archives on Malay blades if you search. I look forward to your posts and contributions.

[Green]

Rick;

I can't remember any other recent post in Keris warung kopi that I sent apart from this one (about Malaysian kris blade styles)...

David;

My head is spinning reading all the very instructive and fascinating arguments and comments by so many enthusiasts and experts in the old threads/posts but so far haven't come across any to specifically answer my concerns about the (Malay) blade styles.

As to the comment about Indonesia as the main keris cultural base, I'm sure that will get Malaysians quite mad because they also think that kris is their cultural heritage from the beginning too!


Hilts and scabbards of Malay styles are markedly different from the Indonesian ones . For example the Tajong (Pekaka) hilt style is believed to originally come from the Malay Sultanate of Patani (Now Southern Thailand ).

[David]

Well, there is always room for debate Green, but most collectors and writers i am aware of clearly place the origins of the keris in Jawa. This does not mean that the keris is not a also a piece of Malay cultural heritage, but from all my studies i have never seen keris older that certain examples that are clearly Javanese in origin. Most of the Malay collectors i know seem to agree that the keris began in Jawa and migrated outward to the Peninsula. However, the floor is always open for new information and evidence and i would love to see some Malay keris that have a provenance as early as some Javanese keris i have seen.

Originally Posted by Green

so far haven't come across any to specifically answer my concerns about the (Malay) blade styles.

Perhaps if you voiced your specific concerns you will find someone can answer them. What are you trying to ascertain?

[Sajen]

Hello Green,

here you can see my Pandai Saras blade: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=pandai+saras
Here another one: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=pandai+saras

Here you can see two Carita blades: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...t=pandai+saras

And here a Melela blade: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=melela

Tok Chu is a pandai keris and not a specific blade form. I hope this help a little bit.

Regards,
Detlef

[Gustav]

For good posts regarding Malay Keris, please search for posts of DAHenkel and BluErf, especially in the old UBB Forum:

http://www.vikingsword.com/cgi-bin/s...i?action=intro

Put "Ethnographic Edged Weapons" in window "Search Forum/Archive" and the two names abowe in "Search by User Name".

[Green]

Detlef;

Many thanks Detlef for the links showing different shapes of pandai saras, carita and malela.

What I hope to understand clearly is how one can differentiate between the different blade styles and each style's characteristics and salient features.

The reason I ask is because some blades that I see named as Malela look (to my untrained eyes) very much the same as Charita or tok chu not much different to Pandai saras etc. and don't know which style is superior if any.

Someone mentioned (not in this forum) the original tok chu lacks the elephant trunk on the blade although I've seen examples of blades referred to as Tok Chu with the elephant trunk present.

And thanks Gustav for the suggestion. I'll go through the old posts bit by bit and learn from there.

[David]

You may find this thread useful.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=TokChu
I know we have discussed Tok Chu keris on numerous occasions, but unfortunately or search engine has a hard time locating words with 3 letters or less in them.
You will find a bit more for "Melela".
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=485414
As for the name game, we human have a habit of needinf to place everything into neat little categories. Unfortunately these things don't always fit so neatly. Also we have different groups of humans using the same name for different things or different names for the same thing. Also we find that names change over the years and new keris terminology is still being added by collectors. I think we need to always be prepared to confront this confusion and i'm not sure that we can ever find definitive answers to proper naming. It's not really a matter of right or wrong, just differences of opinion. I have always believed that the true nature and understanding of keris is to be found beyond the naming of things.

[Gustav]

Regarding keris attributed Tok Chu to Tok Chu, perhaps the most useful thread is:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7618

Perhaps it sounds harsh, but the information from the thread David linked in previous post sounds like a typical dealers invention with the purpose to sell better their stuff - three completely different keris from at least two very different time periods and quite different quality are linked to a famous name; "tok chu luk, normally with 3 n 5 luk, tokchu pamor, tok chu with 'belalai gajah' with atmost (sic) similar to keris malela" has been "introduced", the Tok Chu now appears to have lived circa 150 years earlier, in a more "magically loaded" time...

Becouse of such "inventions" I am afraid, there are almost none possibilities for a serious research left, and absolutely none in about 30 years for sure.

My apologies for spoiling the business.

[Rick]

No need to apologize for speaking the truth Gustav .
Speaking for myself I agree this is currently the greatest problem with keris study .

[Green]

Many thanks David and Gustav for the links which are very informative but also confusing .This forum is certainly addictive and I'm slowly learning.

Thank you all, on 8th May I'm meeting a pandai in Kelantan that make new blades copying the styles of tok chu and pandai saras. Hope to learn a bit more from him.

[David]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Regarding keris attributed Tok Chu to Tok Chu, perhaps the most useful thread is:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7618

Perhaps it sounds harsh, but the information from the thread David linked in previous post sounds like a typical dealers invention with the purpose to sell better their stuff - three completely different keris from at least two very different time periods and quite different quality are linked to a famous name; "tok chu luk, normally with 3 n 5 luk, tokchu pamor, tok chu with 'belalai gajah' with atmost (sic) similar to keris malela" has been "introduced", the Tok Chu now appears to have lived circa 150 years earlier, in a more "magically loaded" time...

Becouse of such "inventions" I am afraid, there are almost none possibilities for a serious research left, and absolutely none in about 30 years for sure.

My apologies for spoiling the business.

That was part of why i posted it because i thought it explained Green's confusion about seeing multiply styles of blades called Tok Chu. As you probably noted in the thread i was most aggressive with the OP trying to make some sense of the multiple styles he presented being seen under the single name of Tok Chu. I don't believe any of us were fooled at the time.

[Green]

and so I paid a visit to pandai besi known as Najo in Pasir Mas Kelantan yesterday. You can count the best keris makers in Malaysia on one hand right now and he is now the pre eminent pandai besi in kelantan.( The best keris maker by the name of Mustapha unfortunately passed away last year in his early fifties due to heart failure).

He (Najo) make copies of pandai saras, tok chu and malela and here are some examples that reinforce the current understanding of the characteristic shapes of these blade styles.

Pic 1: variations of Tok Chu. the bottom one is his exact copy of an 'original' Tok Chu. Although the size and width look like Tok Chu it is not massive and heavy as an original Tok Chu.

pic 2: Pandai Saras. The bottom one is not yet finished.

pic 3: Malela. The bottom one was made by the famous Mustafa and now belongs to me :-)

Carita, according to Najo is a malela look but without the luks.

My apologies for the poor pics. (blame it on cheap digital cam :-) )

[Gustav]

Green, thank you very much for posting these. It's interesting to see what's going on in Malaysia.

Perhaps would it be possible for you to post some close ups of your new Malela?

[Green]

Gustav, The blade is still with Najo as he is making the scabbard for my malela now and will be ready next month. I will post close up pics when I get it next month.

[maxbliss888]

Tok Chu ?

[maxbliss888]

Tok Chu?