British cutlass early 19th .

Norman McCormick · 6th May 2024, 05:33 PM

Hi,
This illustration may also be pertinent.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2024, 05:12 AM

What a great entry Norman! Thank you!
Had no idea Sheffield was in the game as well as Solingen,
What was the source of this plate? aside from the cite shown.
Best
Jim

urbanspaceman · 7th May 2024, 08:18 AM

I'm a bit confused:
the similarity of the markings on some of the blades in the two plates means what?
Either they both come from Sheffield or they both come from Solingen?

Jim McDougall · 7th May 2024, 03:05 PM

Keith, that kinda threw me as well as I had no idea Sheffield was involved in this blade traffic, but thats pretty much your neck of the woods.
The astral motif was pretty much a Solingen convention which arose from their adoption of these kinds of symbolic devices used on Eastern European blades, combined with the 'magic' symbolism from Spanish blades.

We know of course that Solingen was one of the most innovative centers for blade making, and diligently copied names, markings, phrases, and all manner of blade features in becoming the key supplier for cutlers and trade everywhere.

While they dominated virtually all markets, even having a hand in the English blade making ventures in Hounslow and Shotley in the 17th c. (Shotley into the 18th)...Sheffield seems always to have been quietly in the background.

As the world markets expanded in the colonies of the major powers by the early 19th c, the advent of firearms had become dominant in arms trade overall, but there was still demand for blades in various capacities. Swords remained key for cavalry and overall military use in other areas, but one of the most prevalent markets (yet least documented) was maritime.

Though regulation patterns for military swords had become standardized, in the navies cutlasses had pretty much been sidelined. As always, in colonial and trade activity, the edged weapons aboard (cutlass/machete/couteau or hanger) had always found probably more use for utility use ashore than anything else.

Thus the development of the well extant machete (cutlass at sea) became expanded in the colonies, so blades of the 'cutlass' type became in larger demand as commercial activity for trade required machetes for agricultural use.

So here was the fabled world of the cutlass, now reduced largely to the mundane agricultural use of the machete, however for blade makers, the exact boon they needed to absorb the lessening demand for military blades.

So getting straight to the point (ha ha) it appears Sheffield joined the party by early 19th c. but Solingen had been at it for over a century.
The Sheffield configurations are situated differently on the blade it seems to me than on the Solingen examples, and that seems to do with fullering, also in my view somewhat different than Solingen it would seem (with exceptions of course),.

With blades it seems, it is hard to identify or classify one or another with all the copying of forms and spurious use of markings etc. but often there are nuances which set them apart.

The Solingen machete/cutlass blades typically it seems had the crowned GR well into the 19th c. (even after Victoria came into power) though obviously the cosmological motif often consumed the space in many.
As far as I can tell, it seems Solingen blades dominated, while Sheffield may have become a 'player' in degree.

Well, I wanted to keep it brief

, so for the rest......soon to be an exciting movie.............

Norman McCormick · 7th May 2024, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

What a great entry Norman! Thank you!
Had no idea Sheffield was in the game as well as Solingen,
What was the source of this plate? aside from the cite shown.
Best
Jim

Hi Jim,
The illustration is from a pamphlet sent to me by Philip Lankester about 20 yrs ago when I was enquiring about a particular cutlass blade, photo attached.
My Regards,
Norman.

David R · Yesterday, 10:19 PM

I get the distinct impression that Solingen would stamp up any blade with any motif that would help it sell, wherever! I saw some machetes for sale at Birmingham AF with all these lovely suns moons and whatever and due to the marks were being sold as RN cutlasses of the 18th C! Knowledge is power, and is why I haunt (haunt I say) and value this forum. Anyway, for what it is worth, here is one of mine.
Posted before on another thread.... Sold to me as a Victorian British military blade for cutting forage.

6th May 2024, 05:33 PM	#1
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,577	Hi, This illustration may also be pertinent. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

7th May 2024, 08:18 AM	#3
urbanspaceman Member Join Date: Sep 2017 Location: Tyneside. North-East England Posts: 517	blade markings I'm a bit confused: the similarity of the markings on some of the blades in the two plates means what? Either they both come from Sheffield or they both come from Solingen?

Yesterday, 10:19 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,055	I get the distinct impression that Solingen would stamp up any blade with any motif that would help it sell, wherever! I saw some machetes for sale at Birmingham AF with all these lovely suns moons and whatever and due to the marks were being sold as RN cutlasses of the 18th C! Knowledge is power, and is why I haunt (haunt I say) and value this forum. Anyway, for what it is worth, here is one of mine. Posted before on another thread.... Sold to me as a Victorian British military blade for cutting forage. Attached Images

7th May 2024, 05:12 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	What a great entry Norman! Thank you! Had no idea Sheffield was in the game as well as Solingen, What was the source of this plate? aside from the cite shown. Best Jim

7th May 2024, 03:05 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Keith, that kinda threw me as well as I had no idea Sheffield was involved in this blade traffic, but thats pretty much your neck of the woods. The astral motif was pretty much a Solingen convention which arose from their adoption of these kinds of symbolic devices used on Eastern European blades, combined with the 'magic' symbolism from Spanish blades. We know of course that Solingen was one of the most innovative centers for blade making, and diligently copied names, markings, phrases, and all manner of blade features in becoming the key supplier for cutlers and trade everywhere. While they dominated virtually all markets, even having a hand in the English blade making ventures in Hounslow and Shotley in the 17th c. (Shotley into the 18th)...Sheffield seems always to have been quietly in the background. As the world markets expanded in the colonies of the major powers by the early 19th c, the advent of firearms had become dominant in arms trade overall, but there was still demand for blades in various capacities. Swords remained key for cavalry and overall military use in other areas, but one of the most prevalent markets (yet least documented) was maritime. Though regulation patterns for military swords had become standardized, in the navies cutlasses had pretty much been sidelined. As always, in colonial and trade activity, the edged weapons aboard (cutlass/machete/couteau or hanger) had always found probably more use for utility use ashore than anything else. Thus the development of the well extant machete (cutlass at sea) became expanded in the colonies, so blades of the 'cutlass' type became in larger demand as commercial activity for trade required machetes for agricultural use. So here was the fabled world of the cutlass, now reduced largely to the mundane agricultural use of the machete, however for blade makers, the exact boon they needed to absorb the lessening demand for military blades. So getting straight to the point (ha ha) it appears Sheffield joined the party by early 19th c. but Solingen had been at it for over a century. The Sheffield configurations are situated differently on the blade it seems to me than on the Solingen examples, and that seems to do with fullering, also in my view somewhat different than Solingen it would seem (with exceptions of course),. With blades it seems, it is hard to identify or classify one or another with all the copying of forms and spurious use of markings etc. but often there are nuances which set them apart. The Solingen machete/cutlass blades typically it seems had the crowned GR well into the 19th c. (even after Victoria came into power) though obviously the cosmological motif often consumed the space in many. As far as I can tell, it seems Solingen blades dominated, while Sheffield may have become a 'player' in degree. Well, I wanted to keep it brief , so for the rest......soon to be an exciting movie.............