Barung; weapon, tool or tourist piece?

Bill · 7th July 2009, 02:49 PM

From a clip on the BBC internet news titled "Philippines police rescue hostage".
Near the end of the clip, they show some stock footage of some Abu Seif, one who has a small barung in his belt. If the barung was posted here, most would agree that it was a tourist piece & I'm sure one could find it in the shops in Manila.
It is being worn by a heavily armed man & the Abu Seif are know to decapitate prisoners. Guess, just by being recently made, doesn't make it a tourist piece.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8005805.stm

David · 7th July 2009, 03:07 PM

Bill, if you are talking about the barong that the guy all the way on the left is carrying (i assume you are, but it's not actually in his belt, but hung over his shoulder) i would not be willing to pass any judgement on it's age based on this view. It could be new or it might have belonged to his grandfather.

That being said, you are absolutely right. Just because a barong is newly made does not mean that it is not a fully functional weapon. These weapons are still traditionally made in the Philippines. They are not all cheap tourist items.

Lee · 7th July 2009, 04:14 PM

For when the video disappears from the BBC website...

Emanuel · 7th July 2009, 04:20 PM

Looks like he's carrying a gayang http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8261

hideyoshi · 7th July 2009, 08:00 PM

it rather resembles to this newly made barongs, i think....

Lew · 7th July 2009, 08:23 PM

Looks recent to me also with a small blade. You can sever a head with a 9-12" as long as its sharp and is heavy enough but that blade is recently made looks nothing like the older barungs. Btw an weapon could be a janap and not a barung?

VVV · 7th July 2009, 08:25 PM

I have seen captured swords, barongs and kris, from a friend in the Force Recon of the Filipino Marines.
All of them seems to be late 20th C.
It´s interesting that the one on the picture is a shorter version.
The ginunting of the Filipino Marines is also shorter than the one that the instructors of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali got in the 90´s.
I was told that the reason why is for it to be easier to carry and that it´s only used for closed quarters.
I still prefer the old one that was individually measured for each instructor.

Michael

David · 7th July 2009, 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hideyoshi

it rather resembles to this newly made barongs, i think....

Actually the only similarity i can see is perhaps the color of the wood. The hilt form is definitely not the sam as these. The curve of the hilt looks much more pronounced and the back crest of the kakatau comes right off top of the pommel, not attached to the back of the hilt like the ones you show. The sheath form is also completely different. This is not to say that this isn't a recent blade, just that it is not the same as these ones you show.

migueldiaz · 8th July 2009, 01:21 AM

"Rambo" (the one with the M-60) seems to be clutching a blade, but with a shorter hilt ...

migueldiaz · 8th July 2009, 05:15 AM

By the way, the size of that barung looks like about the same size as the contemporary pira below.

I bought the pira from a local FMA blade instructor, who in turn got it from a Phil. military colonel who served in Basilan. Not sure though if the pira was a capture piece.

The pira's overall lt. is 410 mm (16"), and the blade length is 270 mm (10.5") (blade thickness at hilt is 6 mm or 1/4"). The blade's temper line is visible upon close inspection of the pira.

My point is that this small size (whether it's a barong or a pira, etc.) appears to be a good size for secondary and back-up purposes.

Dimasalang · 8th July 2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

I have seen captured swords, barongs and kris, from a friend in the Force Recon of the Filipino Marines.
All of them seems to be late 20th C.
It´s interesting that the one on the picture is a shorter version.
The ginunting of the Filipino Marines is also shorter than the one that the instructors of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali got in the 90´s.
I was told that the reason why is for it to be easier to carry and that it´s only used for closed quarters.
I still prefer the old one that was individually measured for each instructor.

Michael

I believe Lorenz brought this up before.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...7&postcount=28

I also bought a modern day ginunting from Buddy, the smith who makes them for the Filipino Marines.

migueldiaz · 12th July 2009, 03:48 PM

Some more recent blades, as used by the soldiers of the secessionist Moro Islamic Liberation Front, from this video ...

David · 12th July 2009, 04:29 PM

I am sure that many if not all of these blade (i say blades but we don't really see them in these pictures and videos, just the dress) are fully functional and have utilitarian purpose. Most are probably recent blades, but some could be remounted old blades for all we know. After all, we don't really see them. But i think the bottom line really is that the barong and the kris are both deeply symbolic weapons to the Moros and carrying these smaller examples is no doubt meant to express this symbolic relationship. Obviously with automatic weapons and rocket launches on their shoulders these blades are no longer meant to be their main weapons as they once were. At smaller size they maintain the tradition and history of the Moro warrior and are probably pretty effective as brush cutters and utility knives.

migueldiaz · 13th July 2009, 05:50 AM

David, I agree with everything you said.

And occasionally, government and Moro rebel troops sometimes surprise each other in the middle of the jungle, such that instead of a firefight the encounter becomes a disorganized melee.

In those instances, blades would come in handy.

Recently, a friend (who knows the legendary Col. Ariel Querubin of the Phil. Marines) told me about such typical melee that happened in Mindanao, involving the troops of the said colonel.

The govt. troops were resting in the middle of the jungle while on patrol. Then they and some other guys (resting, too, on a nearby spot) realized very quickly that they were enemies, and so a melee ensued, with no firearms involved!

I'm sure aside from bare fists, rocks, and tree branches, blades were used, too.

KuKulzA28 · 17th July 2009, 08:49 PM

That story is almost amusing... this is...
until you consider the kind of wounds they may receive...
the cut of the ginunting or the slash of the barong...

I have question: do the local smiths in "Moroland" make Moro blades for their own people exclusively? Are they still of the same caliber as they once were? Better? Worse?

kai · 18th July 2009, 11:33 PM

Hello Vinny,

Quote:

do the local smiths in "Moroland" make Moro blades for their own people exclusively?

There may be some who wouldn't want to sell a blade to outsiders. However, with the economical realities in the southern Philippines, most artisans seem to be more than happy to get a broader customer base. Anyway, you'll be unlikely to get into contact with a panday but rather a local dealer.

Quote:

Are they still of the same caliber as they once were? Better? Worse?

There are clear indications that traditional Moro bladesmithing has gone through a severe bottleneck during the 20th century and some may even argue that it has gone extinct (obviously, much of the knowledge got lost).

However, the current panday in Mindanao are getting better (e. g. a separate gangya has been the rule for decent new examples for quite some years) and it is becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish antique kris from some newly produced and artificially patinated ones. Aesthetically, the craftmanship still can't compare with good traditional examples from the early 20th century and I also can't vouch for their balance; I have yet to see a traditionally laminated new piece. However, I'm sure that these blades would do their job and wouldn't want to be of the receiving end of any of the newly produced pieces, too. At least these modern era Moro kris are IMHO much, much closer to the real deal than those repros coming out of Luzon...

Regards,
Kai

migueldiaz · 19th July 2009, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

... I have yet to see a traditionally laminated new piece.

I'm not sure also whether in the recent past (10 to 20 years ago), laminated blades are still being made by Moro bladesmiths.

It appears though that earlier (30 or so years ago), the blades are still laminated. The pic below is from a 1970s Filipino book, on an article on Filipino bladesmithing.

KuKulzA28 · 20th July 2009, 02:54 AM

by the kai I believe I replied you email, though i am very late

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

There are clear indications that traditional Moro bladesmithing has gone through a severe bottleneck during the 20th century and some may even argue that it has gone extinct (obviously, much of the knowledge got lost).

Bottleneck due to the common reasons of lesser demand for traditional blades or to do with wars and such? I know many traditional knife-makers around the world have been supplanted by the knife/machete-factory and the firearm... In Taiwan, the majority of the Aboriginal knife-makers are from Copper-gate village, and have all learnt it from one of the few surviving smiths... the others probably did not pass the art on as they felt it was useless to their people. Nowadays the headhunting knives find a niche as a cultural artifact and mountain survival machete. Would that be what is happening in Sulu and Mindanao?

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

However, the current panday in Mindanao are getting better (e. g. a separate gangya has been the rule for decent new examples for quite some years) and it is becoming increasingly difficult to distinguish antique kris from some newly produced and artificially patinated ones. Aesthetically, the craftmanship still can't compare with good traditional examples from the early 20th century and I also can't vouch for their balance; I have yet to see a traditionally laminated new piece. However, I'm sure that these blades would do their job and wouldn't want to be of the receiving end of any of the newly produced pieces, too.

That is good news. I occasionally see modern-made Moro weapons from the Philippines on sale, but since I cannot hold and test the blade, its hard to tell if they are good blades, or just attractive fittings with a metal piece... Some are obviously Luzon-made like you said... some are even from Pakistan (which in conjunction with India and China, seems to be a big manufacturing place for traditional blades).

I many cases I actually prefer a good modern-made blade...
but good modern-made barongs, made by Moros, seem harder to find than antiques...

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

I'm not sure also whether in the recent past (10 to 20 years ago), laminated blades are still being made by Moro bladesmiths.

It appears though that earlier (30 or so years ago), the blades are still laminated. The pic below is from a 1970s Filipino book, on an article on Filipino bladesmithing.

Nice picture... and fascinating... Mr. Quirino's Crossing the Sulu Seas does show laminated blades and a kris being forged- that was in 1988 or a little later. As this is 2009, that was only 21 years ago, so at least a few folks in Sulu most still know the art.... but a lot can happen in 20 years.

KuKulzA28 · 23rd July 2009, 03:58 AM

I decided to some research, although I don't have the blessing of location as some Filipino/Moro forum members might have.

I found a dealer. I cannot say who due to forum rules. I don't want to be banned for bringing up a dealer, I've already had 2 strikes out of my own stupidity. I found what he said interesting. He said that the Maranao blacksmiths he works with arrive every month or two to drop off their work. It seems that sometimes they scavenge old blades, and repair them or give new sheaths or embellish their fittings. The fact he noted his wares aren't the flimsy tourist type and that he candidly stated "the quality of steel used on old/antique swords are far superior than the new ones. Although I also sell some new pieces that have very solid blades, the feel and sound when you flick the blade of an original is different" lead me to believe what he says is true. Perhaps I'll find out for myself...
But I may not be able to tell the different since, unlike a few of you, I don't have and never did have a lot of barongs to handle and note the variation between modern and antique... used to have one antique and one modern-made... the antique I guessed to be recent due to a more slender blade (WW2?) and square-ish junggayan - but I am no expert. I think I'd probably be easily fooled anyways.

I hope my research has shed some light on the state of Moro blademsithing... perhaps you guys all know already, I wouldn't be surprised

The dealer's words seems to, in some way, echo David's

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am sure that many if not all of these blade (i say blades but we don't really see them in these pictures and videos, just the dress) are fully functional and have utilitarian purpose. Most are probably recent blades, but some could be remounted old blades for all we know. After all, we don't really see them. But i think the bottom line really is that the barong and the kris are both deeply symbolic weapons to the Moros and carrying these smaller examples is no doubt meant to express this symbolic relationship. Obviously with automatic weapons and rocket launches on their shoulders these blades are no longer meant to be their main weapons as they once were. At smaller size they maintain the tradition and history of the Moro warrior and are probably pretty effective as brush cutters and utility knives.

In addition to that, their market is probably not the Moro warrior but the collector and the martial artist - occasionally an actual user

migueldiaz · 21st August 2009, 03:32 AM

Still on contemporary use of blades among Moros, the Phil. military had a skirmish recently with Moro rebels.

A newspaper report mentioned this about the Moro leader who was one of the seven Moro casualties:
"Authorities identified the group’s leader [Abdullah Abdurajak] through his kris and .45 cal. pistol, which are known symbols of authority among Muslim groups."
Another newspaper article said that aside from high-powered arms, the soldiers also collected blades from the seven dead Moro rebels.

Looks like blades are still very much in use on both sides ...

KuKulzA28 · 21st August 2009, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

Still on contemporary use of blades among Moros, the Phil. military had a skirmish recently with Moro rebels.

A newspaper report mentioned this about the Moro leader who was one of the seven Moro casualties:
"Authorities identified the group’s leader [Abdullah Abdurajak] through his kris and .45 cal. pistol, which are known symbols of authority among Muslim groups."
Another newspaper article said that aside from high-powered arms, the soldiers also collected blades from the seven dead Moro rebels.

Looks like blades are still very much in use on both sides ...

wow... figures, .45 and kris, deadly weapons both of them

Thanks for reviving this thread, I thought interest had died off.

Battara · 21st August 2009, 04:30 AM

Oh no the interest is still alive, especially since the PI Armed Forces train for combat with ginuting.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 21st August 2009, 07:34 AM

Glad you brought it back up also as I missed it. The blade originally in question is as migeldiaz noted a modern pira. Common in markets and throughout the Sulu archipelago now days. I actually have one with a horse hoof handle that was throw in the trash at our camp (a rescue operation for me). They run about 400 pesos or $8 at the market and surprisingly enough, most having been made from blanks, all I saw were heat-treated. BTW the ASG is concentrated in Jolo and Basilan (islands in the Sulu archipelago) for location reference.

Yes most soldiers of every persuasion carry a knife and the modern pira is quite capable. Heat treated and sharp enough for small work, great for whacking down the needed branches for a quick lean-to or clearing an overgrown trail and still heavy enough to split open a coconut, yet deadly in close combat (though most engagements are at sight distance 100m or less in the canopy - Tausugs are notoriously bad shots).

We've already discussed the .45 cal in previous posts as the status symbol der jur for most in Southern Mindanao, shooting clubs abound and if you are anybody you belong to one and compete regularly. Lady Ann, the Vice Governor of Jolo and owner of one of the most impressive tricked out .45s I've seen is quite the shot. Extended mags are a must!

As for Pandys, they still exist in Jolo but most of their work is relegated to mass quantity stuff, though I did meet one in Indanan who said he still does the traditional stuff and does the occasional repair of a family heirloom.

I had a scabbard made for an old barong I picked up there and while solid the craftsmanship wasn't the same quality as the others I have- the repair of the silver work however was top notch - single instance perhaps.

While in Central Mindanao while I asked around continually (Cotobato and Maguindanao) I couldn't find a single pandy or any old pieces that anyone would show much less offer for sale -disappointing.

migueldiaz · 22nd August 2009, 08:09 AM

Thanks for those info, Dan

I was just wondering, have you had the chance to see Ilaga militiamen in your travels to Mindanao?

The 2008 pics below show Ilaga militia of Cotabato in Mindanao. The pics are not mine incidentally (and I haven't met an Ilaga before).

I ask because of the historical significance of the relationship between the Ilagas and the Moros. The Ilagas are Visayans (from Panay/ Negros) who migrated to Mindanao to settle there.

And given that Ilagas (who are allied with the government) are militants like the Moros, their relationship has always been strained to put it mildly.

My query is as to whether the Ilagas still carry edged weapons with them up to now (e.g., tenegre or ginunting, like their forefathers did), in the same manner that Moro rebels still carry kris and barong up to this day.

I was reviewing the pics below but I can't find any sign of those blades ...

wilked aka Khun Deng · 22nd August 2009, 09:26 AM

Migel,
No I haven't run across them, at least not named as a group. But in Central Mindanao I only got out into Maguindanao and and up around Marawi. But now that you mention it even the MILF I saw standing guard didn't have a blade visible. strange for a regular soldier, but even amongst a know group like the MILF most are not regular soldiers just young men with no opportunity and a family or clan allegiance that requires them to take a side.

What I have found is that the groupings there (family and clan) are still very insular so while some may not carry blades other groups only a short distance away may (the Lumad tribes still do). Having said that, the status of carrying a blade has long since been replaced by the weapon you carry, in an arguable priority order M-1, M2 carbine, BAR, AK-47 (rare and ammo difficult) M-16, M-16A2, M-60 MG, .45 cal and if you're REALLY somebody a M-4 (M-16 carbine) - note the guy in the bleached out camouflage top either a leader or related).

I'd assume from the history and pictures I've read that the Kampilan was the top of the heap for status when swords were the primary weapon as they usually incorporated a bearerbut if anyone has insight on that I'd be interested.

Dan

Spunjer · 22nd August 2009, 12:54 PM

miguel,
hehe, now we're talking ilonggo here. some of the Ilagas (literally meaning Rat) still carry blades, in the form of Binangon, but it's more of a utilitarian than primary weapon. but you can bet on this: lots of them has some form of anting-anting. used to be a lot of Ilagas in the outskirt of gensan.

migueldiaz · 22nd August 2009, 01:48 PM

Thanks again Dan for those front seat observations!

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilked aka Khun Deng

... Having said that, the status of carrying a blade has long since been replaced by the weapon you carry, in an arguable priority order M-1, M2 carbine, BAR, AK-47 (rare and ammo difficult) M-16, M-16A2, M-60 MG, .45 cal and if you're REALLY somebody a M-4 (M-16 carbine) - note the guy in the bleached out camouflage top either a leader or related).

I wonder where the Tommy Gun will be in the hierarchy?

migueldiaz · 22nd August 2009, 02:05 PM

Spunjer/ Dan, below is the last pic I got of the reactivation of the Ilagas in 2008.

To all -- the Ilagas are supposedly the only group that the Moros are wary about.

In fact last year when the Moro rebels went on a rampage in Mindanao, the reactivation of the Ilagas by the government as one of the countermeasures made the Moro rebels complain something to the effect that "It's not fair!".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

miguel, hehe, now we're talking ilonggo here. some of the Ilagas (literally meaning Rat) still carry blades, in the form of Binangon, but it's more of a utilitarian than primary weapon. but you can bet on this: lots of them has some form of anting-anting. used to be a lot of Ilagas in the outskirt of gensan.

Spunjer, am really glad you can make it

At last, we have an Ilonggo who can shed more light on what his Ilaga uncles are made of

Hey, I didn't know that the name means rats.

By the way, are the notches on the rifle (left photo) supposed to mean number of kills? The right photo on the other hand shows the big boss of this Ilaga group. Does that barrel look like it's an M-16-A4?

Last but not the least, thanks for the comment on the binangon! And yes, I do know that the Ilagas are deep into anting-antings (talismans).

As a last point, unlike the Moros, it is apparent that the Ilagas (and Ilonggos, in general?) don't have any sentimentality and symbolism for the tenegres and ginuntings of their forefathers ...

kino · 22nd August 2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:

I wonder where the Tommy Gun will be in the hierarchy?

I wonder where that Thompson came from, Danao?

Are those BAR's I see.

Miguel, I'm always enjoying your photos, good work Bro.

Spunjer · 23rd August 2009, 06:06 AM

Ilagas were notorious back in the 70's. lots of bloody clashes then. use to hear stories were they would lop off the ear of their kills and made a necklace out of it.
didn't know they were deactivated...

7th July 2009, 02:49 PM	#1
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Barung; weapon, tool or tourist piece? From a clip on the BBC internet news titled "Philippines police rescue hostage". Near the end of the clip, they show some stock footage of some Abu Seif, one who has a small barung in his belt. If the barung was posted here, most would agree that it was a tourist piece & I'm sure one could find it in the shops in Manila. It is being worn by a heavily armed man & the Abu Seif are know to decapitate prisoners. Guess, just by being recently made, doesn't make it a tourist piece. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8005805.stm

7th July 2009, 04:14 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 913	For when the video disappears from the BBC website For when the video disappears from the BBC website... Attached Images

7th July 2009, 08:00 PM	#5
hideyoshi Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 58	it rather resembles to this newly made barongs, i think.... Attached Images

8th July 2009, 01:21 AM	#9
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	"Rambo" (the one with the M-60) seems to be clutching a blade, but with a shorter hilt ... Attached Images

8th July 2009, 05:15 AM	#10
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	By the way, the size of that barung looks like about the same size as the contemporary pira below. I bought the pira from a local FMA blade instructor, who in turn got it from a Phil. military colonel who served in Basilan. Not sure though if the pira was a capture piece. The pira's overall lt. is 410 mm (16"), and the blade length is 270 mm (10.5") (blade thickness at hilt is 6 mm or 1/4"). The blade's temper line is visible upon close inspection of the pira. My point is that this small size (whether it's a barong or a pira, etc.) appears to be a good size for secondary and back-up purposes. Attached Images Last edited by migueldiaz; 8th July 2009 at 05:41 AM. Reason: Metric system added

7th July 2009, 03:07 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	Bill, if you are talking about the barong that the guy all the way on the left is carrying (i assume you are, but it's not actually in his belt, but hung over his shoulder) i would not be willing to pass any judgement on it's age based on this view. It could be new or it might have belonged to his grandfather. That being said, you are absolutely right. Just because a barong is newly made does not mean that it is not a fully functional weapon. These weapons are still traditionally made in the Philippines. They are not all cheap tourist items.

7th July 2009, 04:20 PM	#4
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Looks like he's carrying a gayang http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8261

7th July 2009, 08:23 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Looks recent to me also with a small blade. You can sever a head with a 9-12" as long as its sharp and is heavy enough but that blade is recently made looks nothing like the older barungs. Btw an weapon could be a janap and not a barung?

7th July 2009, 08:25 PM	#7
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I have seen captured swords, barongs and kris, from a friend in the Force Recon of the Filipino Marines. All of them seems to be late 20th C. It´s interesting that the one on the picture is a shorter version. The ginunting of the Filipino Marines is also shorter than the one that the instructors of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali got in the 90´s. I was told that the reason why is for it to be easier to carry and that it´s only used for closed quarters. I still prefer the old one that was individually measured for each instructor. Michael

12th July 2009, 03:48 PM	#12
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Some more recent blades, as used by the soldiers of the secessionist Moro Islamic Liberation Front, from this video ... Attached Images

12th July 2009, 04:29 PM	#13
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,113	I am sure that many if not all of these blade (i say blades but we don't really see them in these pictures and videos, just the dress) are fully functional and have utilitarian purpose. Most are probably recent blades, but some could be remounted old blades for all we know. After all, we don't really see them. But i think the bottom line really is that the barong and the kris are both deeply symbolic weapons to the Moros and carrying these smaller examples is no doubt meant to express this symbolic relationship. Obviously with automatic weapons and rocket launches on their shoulders these blades are no longer meant to be their main weapons as they once were. At smaller size they maintain the tradition and history of the Moro warrior and are probably pretty effective as brush cutters and utility knives.

13th July 2009, 05:50 AM	#14
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	David, I agree with everything you said. And occasionally, government and Moro rebel troops sometimes surprise each other in the middle of the jungle, such that instead of a firefight the encounter becomes a disorganized melee. In those instances, blades would come in handy. Recently, a friend (who knows the legendary Col. Ariel Querubin of the Phil. Marines) told me about such typical melee that happened in Mindanao, involving the troops of the said colonel. The govt. troops were resting in the middle of the jungle while on patrol. Then they and some other guys (resting, too, on a nearby spot) realized very quickly that they were enemies, and so a melee ensued, with no firearms involved! I'm sure aside from bare fists, rocks, and tree branches, blades were used, too.

17th July 2009, 08:49 PM	#15
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	That story is almost amusing... this is... until you consider the kind of wounds they may receive... the cut of the ginunting or the slash of the barong... I have question: do the local smiths in "Moroland" make Moro blades for their own people exclusively? Are they still of the same caliber as they once were? Better? Worse?

21st August 2009, 03:32 AM	#20
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Still on contemporary use of blades among Moros, the Phil. military had a skirmish recently with Moro rebels. A newspaper report mentioned this about the Moro leader who was one of the seven Moro casualties: "Authorities identified the group’s leader [Abdullah Abdurajak] through his kris and .45 cal. pistol, which are known symbols of authority among Muslim groups." Another newspaper article said that aside from high-powered arms, the soldiers also collected blades from the seven dead Moro rebels. Looks like blades are still very much in use on both sides ...

21st August 2009, 04:30 AM	#22
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,217	Oh no the interest is still alive, especially since the PI Armed Forces train for combat with ginuting.

21st August 2009, 07:34 AM	#23
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Glad you brought it back up also as I missed it. The blade originally in question is as migeldiaz noted a modern pira. Common in markets and throughout the Sulu archipelago now days. I actually have one with a horse hoof handle that was throw in the trash at our camp (a rescue operation for me). They run about 400 pesos or $8 at the market and surprisingly enough, most having been made from blanks, all I saw were heat-treated. BTW the ASG is concentrated in Jolo and Basilan (islands in the Sulu archipelago) for location reference. Yes most soldiers of every persuasion carry a knife and the modern pira is quite capable. Heat treated and sharp enough for small work, great for whacking down the needed branches for a quick lean-to or clearing an overgrown trail and still heavy enough to split open a coconut, yet deadly in close combat (though most engagements are at sight distance 100m or less in the canopy - Tausugs are notoriously bad shots). We've already discussed the .45 cal in previous posts as the status symbol der jur for most in Southern Mindanao, shooting clubs abound and if you are anybody you belong to one and compete regularly. Lady Ann, the Vice Governor of Jolo and owner of one of the most impressive tricked out .45s I've seen is quite the shot. Extended mags are a must! As for Pandys, they still exist in Jolo but most of their work is relegated to mass quantity stuff, though I did meet one in Indanan who said he still does the traditional stuff and does the occasional repair of a family heirloom. I had a scabbard made for an old barong I picked up there and while solid the craftsmanship wasn't the same quality as the others I have- the repair of the silver work however was top notch - single instance perhaps. While in Central Mindanao while I asked around continually (Cotobato and Maguindanao) I couldn't find a single pandy or any old pieces that anyone would show much less offer for sale -disappointing.

22nd August 2009, 08:09 AM	#24
migueldiaz Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Manila, Phils. Posts: 1,042	Thanks for those info, Dan I was just wondering, have you had the chance to see Ilaga militiamen in your travels to Mindanao? The 2008 pics below show Ilaga militia of Cotabato in Mindanao. The pics are not mine incidentally (and I haven't met an Ilaga before). I ask because of the historical significance of the relationship between the Ilagas and the Moros. The Ilagas are Visayans (from Panay/ Negros) who migrated to Mindanao to settle there. And given that Ilagas (who are allied with the government) are militants like the Moros, their relationship has always been strained to put it mildly. My query is as to whether the Ilagas still carry edged weapons with them up to now (e.g., tenegre or ginunting, like their forefathers did), in the same manner that Moro rebels still carry kris and barong up to this day. I was reviewing the pics below but I can't find any sign of those blades ... Attached Images

22nd August 2009, 09:26 AM	#25
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Migel, No I haven't run across them, at least not named as a group. But in Central Mindanao I only got out into Maguindanao and and up around Marawi. But now that you mention it even the MILF I saw standing guard didn't have a blade visible. strange for a regular soldier, but even amongst a know group like the MILF most are not regular soldiers just young men with no opportunity and a family or clan allegiance that requires them to take a side. What I have found is that the groupings there (family and clan) are still very insular so while some may not carry blades other groups only a short distance away may (the Lumad tribes still do). Having said that, the status of carrying a blade has long since been replaced by the weapon you carry, in an arguable priority order M-1, M2 carbine, BAR, AK-47 (rare and ammo difficult) M-16, M-16A2, M-60 MG, .45 cal and if you're REALLY somebody a M-4 (M-16 carbine) - note the guy in the bleached out camouflage top either a leader or related). I'd assume from the history and pictures I've read that the Kampilan was the top of the heap for status when swords were the primary weapon as they usually incorporated a bearerbut if anyone has insight on that I'd be interested. Dan

22nd August 2009, 12:54 PM	#26
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	miguel, hehe, now we're talking ilonggo here. some of the Ilagas (literally meaning Rat) still carry blades, in the form of Binangon, but it's more of a utilitarian than primary weapon. but you can bet on this: lots of them has some form of anting-anting. used to be a lot of Ilagas in the outskirt of gensan.

23rd August 2009, 06:06 AM	#30
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Ilagas were notorious back in the 70's. lots of bloody clashes then. use to hear stories were they would lop off the ear of their kills and made a necklace out of it. didn't know they were deactivated...