Spanish Dagger comments please

Marcus · 18th July 2006, 04:54 PM

I just bought this "Castillian Dagger" in Toledo. Believe me, it was hard to find anything in Toledo that was not tourist junk. It has a Toledo mark and is dated 1870. If anyone can offe more insights, I would appreciate it.
Marcus

not2sharp · 18th July 2006, 10:18 PM

Marcus,

That looks like it might be a modern reproduction. It is hard to see the tang stamp on the knife. Do you have a better image?

n2s

Marcus · 18th July 2006, 10:35 PM

I believe the dealer was very reputable. We talked for an hour. He knew the difference between old and new and did not misrepresent his pieces. He did tell me that he thought the inlays that look like bone were probably bakelite or some other early synthetic.
Here is another picture of the proof mark.

Marc · 18th July 2006, 10:45 PM

It's an "Albacete" dagger, named such because this pattern is considered typical from the city of Albacete, in the actual Spanish region of Castilla La Mancha
The pictures are not clear enough to pass a truly accurate judgement about the age of this specimen, but if its indeed old, the style would coincide with the second half of the 19th. - beginning of 20th centuries.
I would not place much hope in the blade's inscriptions. Decoration on these blades used to be punched with geometrical patterns of dots or etched with foliage and inscriptions. Featuring the manufaturing date is not unheard of, but it normally appars as an etching. The "Toledo" mark is even more spurious. In short, they are good candidates to be later additions.

Despite of this, if it's indeed old it's a nice exemplar. My congratulations on actually finding a weapon really worth buying in the city, it's not easy, as you've already pointed out. And the few places with some genuine material are freakingly expensive...

Marcus · 19th July 2006, 05:50 AM

Thank you Marc. By the way, the dealer's name is Julio Linares Graciani.

My wife and I are on our first visit to Spain and will soon go on to Barcelona. Are there shops or districts there you might recomend I visit? I collect edged weapons but my greater interest is in antique pistols.

Marc · 19th July 2006, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

Thank you Marc. By the way, the dealer's name is Julio Linares Graciani.

My wife and I are on our first visit to Spain and will soon go on to Barcelona. Are there shops or districts there you might recomend I visit? I collect edged weapons but my greater interest is in antique pistols.

Yes, near the Synagogue of Santa María la Blanca, I know the shop...

On the other hand, sadly, in the few years that have passed since I left Barcelona, the two most important antique shops specialized in arms and armour have closed their showrooms. They're not out of business, but now you can't just walk in... anyway, if you have time and your wife is in the right mood, you could make a stop at the Army Museum in Montjuïch Castle, or the Ethnological Museum, which is relatively close.
While in Madrid, and related to the Arms and Armour field, don't miss, in this order, The Royal Armouries (in the Royal Palace), the Naval Museum, the Ethnological Museum, the Lázaro Galdeano Museum (I think the Arms and Armour section is only open in the weekends, phone them to check), the Instituto Valencia de Don Juan (only by appointment) or the Cerralbo Museum. Any touristic guide worth its salt should fill you in with the details of the places I mentioned...

Send me a PM if you plan to visit the Archaeological Museum, by the way.
Oh, and, please, enjoy your stay

I hope these days' heat wave isn't making things too difficult...

Chris Evans · 20th July 2006, 08:33 AM

Hi Marcus,

Not2sharp has summed it up pretty neatly. It is a dagger in the Albacete pattern, but its date of manufacture is a puzzle. If the inserts are indeed synthetic, as you suspect, (the handle looks too white to be bone) then that would date is as post WWI and daggers such as your were still being manufactured as late as 1960 for the tourist trade. I also find that "1870" highly suspect, and by way of comment can add that the practice of falsifying dates of manufacture as well as brands was not uncommon amongst Spanish cutlers. The all too ubiquitous "Toledo" can be found in any number of junk Spanish navajas, knives and swords, being a generic brand intended to beguile tourists, trading on the justly famous reputation of the sword blades manufactured in that city before the 20th cntry.

I could not identify the logo-brand from my books

Is the blade hardened?

Cheers
Chris

Marcus · 20th July 2006, 07:15 PM

Chris,
As far as I can tell it is good steel. It has a nice sharp edge. However, I think Julio himself questioned the date. I can certainly believe that the stampings were added later to try to create a history for the piece. Anyway, when I get back to the states I will show it to my blacksmith friend and let you know what he says.
Marcus

not2sharp · 20th July 2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

Chris,
As far as I can tell it is good steel. It has a nice sharp edge. However, I think Julio himself questioned the date. I can certainly believe that the stampings were added later to try to create a history for the piece. Anyway, when I get back to the states I will show it to my blacksmith friend and let you know what he says.
Marcus

Marcus,

There is a real one for sale at

Tienda:
Av. Paluzie, 12
17800 Olot (Girona) SPAIN
Tel.: (+34) 972 26 13 58

It is on their website here:
http://www.infobase.net/sala/index3.html

If you are still in the neighborhood; stop by and they will be able to help you identify your knife.

n2s

Marcus · 20th July 2006, 10:28 PM

That is a really beautiful piece. However, what I bought is also pretty nice for only 85 euros (10% the price). In any case, it was certainly the nicest affordable piece I saw in Toledo. I only buy big ticket items when I can really afford the train fare.
Marcus

Chris Evans · 21st July 2006, 02:34 AM

Hi Marcus,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

Chris,
As far as I can tell it is good steel. It has a nice sharp edge. However, I think Julio himself questioned the date. I can certainly believe that the stampings were added later to try to create a history for the piece. Anyway, when I get back to the states I will show it to my blacksmith friend and let you know what he says.
Marcus

The reason I asked is because it is very hard to stamp a hardened blade, at least to the depth of that "1870".

Be that as it may, you did not do badly at all for the price you paid because it is obviously handmade and E85 is small change in Spain for anything.

Cheers
Chris

Chris Evans · 21st July 2006, 02:38 AM

Hi Not2sharp,

Quote:

Originally Posted by not2sharp

Marcus,

There is a real one for sale at

Tienda:
Av. Paluzie, 12
17800 Olot (Girona) SPAIN
Tel.: (+34) 972 26 13 58

It is on their website here:
http://www.infobase.net/sala/index3.html

If you are still in the neighborhood; stop by and they will be able to help you identify your knife.

n2s

I just would like to give them an endorsement - They are a real nice outfit. I had dealings with them over the years. Their prices are very reasonable and the description of the goods accurate. What is more, the owner speaks and writes English fluently. Now if I could only afford one of those magnificent rapiers......

Cheers
Chris

carlos · 22nd July 2006, 10:21 AM

I THINK IS A MODERN DAGGER, I HAVE ONE LIKE THIS, BUT WITHOUT MARKS, IT´S THE SAME. AND THE PRICE IS TOO LOW , IN TOLEDO AN AUTENTIC ALBACETE DAGGER COST MORE OF 300 EUROS. IT´S ONLY MY OPINION.
THANKS
CARLOS

Marcus · 23rd July 2006, 07:58 AM

Does anyone know what the purpose was for the cut-outs in the blades of these daggers?
Marcus

not2sharp · 23rd July 2006, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus

Does anyone know what the purpose was for the cut-outs in the blades of these daggers?
Marcus

The shifty eyed ones will suggest that the cutout would be coated with poison, or used to inject air (promote gangerine) into the wound, or perhaps there to ease the extraction of the knife. None of which make much sense since someone locked into that level of combat would very much like to see his opponent die immediately rather then within hours, days, or weeks from some desease or toxin. Most likely they were 1) a decorative device, and 2) used by the bladesmith to ease the manufacture of the knife. The cutouts do not appear on all Abacete daggers.

n2s

Marcus · 23rd July 2006, 07:19 PM

I got to the military museum in Barcelona today (after all the Picasso exhibits earlier this week, it was my wife's turn to be patient). Here are pictures of similar weapons from their collection. Most have the cut out. One has a metal (brass?) insert in the cut out.
Marcus

not2sharp · 24th July 2006, 06:23 AM

The metal insert would have been a "bodkin" used as a crossbar to limit blade penetration.

Notice the sword all the way on the right (yes, all three shown in illustration are specialized hunting swords):

This was particularly useful when you wanted to be able to control dangerous game; to keep them at a distance rather then having them ride up the blade to within striking range. It doesn't make much sense on a knife; although, these daggers evolved from the hunting plug bayonet, so it may have been a stylistic element retained from the earlier form.

n2s

Marcus · 24th July 2006, 08:05 AM

N2S,
I thought it looked rather like a plug bayonet when I first saw it. For hunting, you say? I suppose after you took your one shot you had to do something if the Boar wasn't down.
M

Marc · 24th July 2006, 08:40 AM

In this kind of daggers, the cutouts are decorative, as are the brass inserts in some of them. They tend not to be attached very securely, so the majority of them have been lost over time.

I'm glad you enjoyed your visit to the Montjüich Castle museum.

Marcus · 24th July 2006, 02:21 PM

I also saw a nice authentic one in a high level shop in Barcelona today. It had a brass insert in the cut out. Its price was, as predicted, E300.
M

18th July 2006, 04:54 PM	#1
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Spanish Dagger comments please I just bought this "Castillian Dagger" in Toledo. Believe me, it was hard to find anything in Toledo that was not tourist junk. It has a Toledo mark and is dated 1870. If anyone can offe more insights, I would appreciate it. Marcus Attached Images

18th July 2006, 10:35 PM	#3
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	mark I believe the dealer was very reputable. We talked for an hour. He knew the difference between old and new and did not misrepresent his pieces. He did tell me that he thought the inlays that look like bone were probably bakelite or some other early synthetic. Here is another picture of the proof mark. Attached Images

20th July 2006, 07:15 PM	#8
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Is the blade hardened? Chris, As far as I can tell it is good steel. It has a nice sharp edge. However, I think Julio himself questioned the date. I can certainly believe that the stampings were added later to try to create a history for the piece. Anyway, when I get back to the states I will show it to my blacksmith friend and let you know what he says. Marcus

20th July 2006, 10:28 PM	#10
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	what fits in the suitcase (and budget) That is a really beautiful piece. However, what I bought is also pretty nice for only 85 euros (10% the price). In any case, it was certainly the nicest affordable piece I saw in Toledo. I only buy big ticket items when I can really afford the train fare. Marcus

22nd July 2006, 10:21 AM	#13
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 737	ALBACETE DAGGER I THINK IS A MODERN DAGGER, I HAVE ONE LIKE THIS, BUT WITHOUT MARKS, IT´S THE SAME. AND THE PRICE IS TOO LOW , IN TOLEDO AN AUTENTIC ALBACETE DAGGER COST MORE OF 300 EUROS. IT´S ONLY MY OPINION. THANKS CARLOS Attached Images

18th July 2006, 10:18 PM	#2
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	Marcus, That looks like it might be a modern reproduction. It is hard to see the tang stamp on the knife. Do you have a better image? n2s

18th July 2006, 10:45 PM	#4
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	It's an "Albacete" dagger, named such because this pattern is considered typical from the city of Albacete, in the actual Spanish region of Castilla La Mancha The pictures are not clear enough to pass a truly accurate judgement about the age of this specimen, but if its indeed old, the style would coincide with the second half of the 19th. - beginning of 20th centuries. I would not place much hope in the blade's inscriptions. Decoration on these blades used to be punched with geometrical patterns of dots or etched with foliage and inscriptions. Featuring the manufaturing date is not unheard of, but it normally appars as an etching. The "Toledo" mark is even more spurious. In short, they are good candidates to be later additions. Despite of this, if it's indeed old it's a nice exemplar. My congratulations on actually finding a weapon really worth buying in the city, it's not easy, as you've already pointed out. And the few places with some genuine material are freakingly expensive...

19th July 2006, 05:50 AM	#5
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Thank you Marc. By the way, the dealer's name is Julio Linares Graciani. My wife and I are on our first visit to Spain and will soon go on to Barcelona. Are there shops or districts there you might recomend I visit? I collect edged weapons but my greater interest is in antique pistols.

20th July 2006, 08:33 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 676	Hi Marcus, Not2sharp has summed it up pretty neatly. It is a dagger in the Albacete pattern, but its date of manufacture is a puzzle. If the inserts are indeed synthetic, as you suspect, (the handle looks too white to be bone) then that would date is as post WWI and daggers such as your were still being manufactured as late as 1960 for the tourist trade. I also find that "1870" highly suspect, and by way of comment can add that the practice of falsifying dates of manufacture as well as brands was not uncommon amongst Spanish cutlers. The all too ubiquitous "Toledo" can be found in any number of junk Spanish navajas, knives and swords, being a generic brand intended to beguile tourists, trading on the justly famous reputation of the sword blades manufactured in that city before the 20th cntry. I could not identify the logo-brand from my books Is the blade hardened? Cheers Chris

23rd July 2006, 07:58 AM	#14
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	The cut outs Does anyone know what the purpose was for the cut-outs in the blades of these daggers? Marcus

23rd July 2006, 07:19 PM	#16
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Barcelona collection I got to the military museum in Barcelona today (after all the Picasso exhibits earlier this week, it was my wife's turn to be patient). Here are pictures of similar weapons from their collection. Most have the cut out. One has a metal (brass?) insert in the cut out. Marcus Attached Images

24th July 2006, 06:23 AM	#17
not2sharp Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 210	The metal insert would have been a "bodkin" used as a crossbar to limit blade penetration. Notice the sword all the way on the right (yes, all three shown in illustration are specialized hunting swords): This was particularly useful when you wanted to be able to control dangerous game; to keep them at a distance rather then having them ride up the blade to within striking range. It doesn't make much sense on a knife; although, these daggers evolved from the hunting plug bayonet, so it may have been a stylistic element retained from the earlier form. n2s

24th July 2006, 08:05 AM	#18
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Bodkin N2S, I thought it looked rather like a plug bayonet when I first saw it. For hunting, you say? I suppose after you took your one shot you had to do something if the Boar wasn't down. M

24th July 2006, 08:40 AM	#19
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	In this kind of daggers, the cutouts are decorative, as are the brass inserts in some of them. They tend not to be attached very securely, so the majority of them have been lost over time. I'm glad you enjoyed your visit to the Montjüich Castle museum.

24th July 2006, 02:21 PM	#20
Marcus Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 420	Albacete dagger I also saw a nice authentic one in a high level shop in Barcelona today. It had a brass insert in the cut out. Its price was, as predicted, E300. M