Tangs for the memories

Gavin Nugent · 4th September 2015, 03:36 PM

With relation to some of the conversation within the Charles S Sundang post, there are differing thoughts about the methods of securing tangs within hilts and particularly relating to the Sundang and Kris.
One school of though was that the asang-asang is what holds the blade tight and secure within the hilt, the other school of thought being that resins do the job right without the asang-asang...I am all for the resins alone

I noted my experience with various tangs and here is an image of a couple of items from my own collections to support my thoughts about resin alone.
Currently on the bench for restorations; The Laos Dah is for crushed silverwork repairs and the Barong for similar and a proper blade polish whilst it is out.

The Laos Dah;
Its an elegant blade and not a heavy weight by any stretch of the imagination. Its tang is 7.4cms long and the types are only resin set. The material the tang sits in governs the real strength of the sword in combat.

The Barong;
Its a large, thick and heavy blade with a much narrower tang. Its tang is 9cms long. Pound for pound the barong is a much heavier blade than a Sundang or Kris and generates a massive amount of force for such a "little" weapon (compared to a sword). The barong are only secured with resin.

Although not a Sundang or Kris tang, I have overlaid the barong tang to help put things in to perspective.

When considering forces that a heavy barong blade can deliver compared to a Sundang or Kris, it is easy to see that the asang-asang are certainly not the key factor in play in keeping a blade and hilt together and not really needed at all for a functional weapon.

The same thoughts can be carried through to many weapons...look at the Japanese Katana for example...friction fit and a small bamboo peg, Sumatran sword, other Moro swords, Javanese swords, African sword and a long list of others.

As my silversmith explained when we first discussed the Burmese story Dah restoration, I, in my ignorance asked if he was going to glue something in place and it was explained to me that glue will always fail eventually. He explained the long historical use of natural resins and why...why being that for example, if you are wanting to bind, ivory, silver and a steel blade, the resins will adhere properly to all of the surface types and they expand and contract perfectly with great temperature changes...our weapon making ancestors were on to something, something I am sure they experimented with over a very long time and for many weapons type, things never changed because it worked.

Gavin

Pukka Bundook · 4th September 2015, 04:18 PM

Gavin,

I agree that this issue of resins was well understood hundreds of years ago.
Something that will expand and contract and take up shock was required, and they appear to have found the perfect solution.
The Tulwar is another example, with a short tang gummed in place with the resin of the Pepol tree. It Looks like it should not work, but Does work, and very well.
The older kukris often had the blade so attacked to the hilt as well, but not sure if the resin was the same composition.

You are quite right; the way of fixing did not change because it worked!
All very interesting!

Richard.

David R · 4th September 2015, 07:55 PM

From what I have been able to find, not usually a plain resin though. Often a filler added such as brick dust, powdered charcoal or even sand, and usually with wax, oil or even honey added to increase elasticity. The compositions vary according to climate and available materials, and I think there are a couple of other threads here addressing this very subject.

Battara · 5th September 2015, 01:56 AM

In most cases, later kris seem to have asang-asang/baka-baka as more of a decoration that pays homage to earlier pieces that perhaps needed them.

kronckew · 5th September 2015, 10:59 AM

nepali arms use 'laha' - a mix including pine tree resins combined with the fibrous dried dung and hair of buffalo, also known as himalayan epoxy

- they've proven it over hundreds if not thousands of years of battle, as well as almost continuous use for domestic chores chopping wood and stuff. it's strong, shock resistant and you can boil a hilt in a plastic bag to melt it to remove/replace a damaged hilt. it smells wonderful (er, wonderfully bad) when you melt it, wives do NOT like you doing it indoors in their favourite pan either (don't ask how i know)

.

Gavin Nugent · 12th October 2015, 10:16 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_tar

I found it mentioned here;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi

Gavin

4th September 2015, 03:36 PM	#1
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Tangs for the memories With relation to some of the conversation within the Charles S Sundang post, there are differing thoughts about the methods of securing tangs within hilts and particularly relating to the Sundang and Kris. One school of though was that the asang-asang is what holds the blade tight and secure within the hilt, the other school of thought being that resins do the job right without the asang-asang...I am all for the resins alone I noted my experience with various tangs and here is an image of a couple of items from my own collections to support my thoughts about resin alone. Currently on the bench for restorations; The Laos Dah is for crushed silverwork repairs and the Barong for similar and a proper blade polish whilst it is out. The Laos Dah; Its an elegant blade and not a heavy weight by any stretch of the imagination. Its tang is 7.4cms long and the types are only resin set. The material the tang sits in governs the real strength of the sword in combat. The Barong; Its a large, thick and heavy blade with a much narrower tang. Its tang is 9cms long. Pound for pound the barong is a much heavier blade than a Sundang or Kris and generates a massive amount of force for such a "little" weapon (compared to a sword). The barong are only secured with resin. Although not a Sundang or Kris tang, I have overlaid the barong tang to help put things in to perspective. When considering forces that a heavy barong blade can deliver compared to a Sundang or Kris, it is easy to see that the asang-asang are certainly not the key factor in play in keeping a blade and hilt together and not really needed at all for a functional weapon. The same thoughts can be carried through to many weapons...look at the Japanese Katana for example...friction fit and a small bamboo peg, Sumatran sword, other Moro swords, Javanese swords, African sword and a long list of others. As my silversmith explained when we first discussed the Burmese story Dah restoration, I, in my ignorance asked if he was going to glue something in place and it was explained to me that glue will always fail eventually. He explained the long historical use of natural resins and why...why being that for example, if you are wanting to bind, ivory, silver and a steel blade, the resins will adhere properly to all of the surface types and they expand and contract perfectly with great temperature changes...our weapon making ancestors were on to something, something I am sure they experimented with over a very long time and for many weapons type, things never changed because it worked. Gavin Attached Images

4th September 2015, 04:18 PM	#2
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Gavin, I agree that this issue of resins was well understood hundreds of years ago. Something that will expand and contract and take up shock was required, and they appear to have found the perfect solution. The Tulwar is another example, with a short tang gummed in place with the resin of the Pepol tree. It Looks like it should not work, but Does work, and very well. The older kukris often had the blade so attacked to the hilt as well, but not sure if the resin was the same composition. You are quite right; the way of fixing did not change because it worked! All very interesting! Richard.

4th September 2015, 07:55 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	From what I have been able to find, not usually a plain resin though. Often a filler added such as brick dust, powdered charcoal or even sand, and usually with wax, oil or even honey added to increase elasticity. The compositions vary according to climate and available materials, and I think there are a couple of other threads here addressing this very subject.

5th September 2015, 01:56 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	In most cases, later kris seem to have asang-asang/baka-baka as more of a decoration that pays homage to earlier pieces that perhaps needed them.

5th September 2015, 10:59 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	nepali arms use 'laha' - a mix including pine tree resins combined with the fibrous dried dung and hair of buffalo, also known as himalayan epoxy - they've proven it over hundreds if not thousands of years of battle, as well as almost continuous use for domestic chores chopping wood and stuff. it's strong, shock resistant and you can boil a hilt in a plastic bag to melt it to remove/replace a damaged hilt. it smells wonderful (er, wonderfully bad) when you melt it, wives do NOT like you doing it indoors in their favourite pan either (don't ask how i know) .

12th October 2015, 10:16 PM	#6
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birch_tar I found it mentioned here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96tzi Gavin