New made hilts for comments

Ganja Iras · 7th May 2013, 05:07 PM

dear guys ,

here i post some pic's of two new made ivory hilts
both of them are carved in lombok.
thanks for watching

ganja iras

David · 9th May 2013, 05:54 PM

So what is the source of the ivory for these new hilts? Personally i am not too keen on newly made ivory items due to the protected status of the source animals. While i realize that there is a certain amount of legal ivory trade, many authorities feel that the legal trade encourages more poaching due to increased demand for the material. Once we get to the finished carved hilt, how do we know if the material is legal or black market? I would image that getting paperwork on these hilts to pass CITES requirements for customs might be a bit difficult.
The carving on these is certainly intricate, though it seems to lack the skill and finesse of older examples i have seen in a similar style. Interesting, though i suppose not surprising, that these are not Lombok of Bali style hilts in spite of their origin.

Rick · 9th May 2013, 06:09 PM

A steady hand and some Dentist's bits on a flex shaft tool can work wonders I'd guess .

Jean · 9th May 2013, 06:31 PM

The carving quality is OK but not fantastic, and are you sure that these pieces are newly made? There are traces of patina which do not seem artificial

Regards

Rick · 9th May 2013, 06:41 PM

He does not say that the ivory is new; perhaps it isn't, or is cleverly aged .

If I might editorialise here for a moment :

I really wish we could move past these 'Drive By' postings where the O.P. drops a picture 'for comment' and is seen no more in the thread .

A. G. Maisey · 9th May 2013, 11:31 PM

If the material is ivory it is probably sourced from old bride price ivory used in the eastern islands.

However.

A few weeks ago in Solo I saw quite a lot of exactly similar hilts that had been made from cunningly cut and joined bone, I was told "fish bone" and "shark bone" but I don't know what it was, except it was bone, and very, very skilfully joined. I needed to use a loupe to find the joins on most pieces.

The patination was as good or better than what I'm looking at in these pics, and the carving was considerably better.

In the hand they were difficult to differentiate from ivory; in a photo they would have been impossible to differentiate from ivory.

I know where they were carved, I know the name and address of the carver, I know where most of them were going.

Prospective purchasers of this type of thing should tread very carefully.

VANDOO · 9th May 2013, 11:46 PM

IT IS GOOD TO SEE SOMEONE IS STILL CARVING IVORY SO THE SKILL WILL NOT BE LOST FOREVER. THE WORKMANSHIP IS NOT AS GOOD AS THE OLD MASTERS BUT THAT IS TO BE EXPECTED. THE OLD MASTERS OF IVORY CARVING ARE PROBABLY GONE OR RETIRED LONG AGO. HOW MANY HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF CARVINGS WOULD IT TAKE TO MASTER THE MATERIAL TO CREATE SOME OF THE OLD MASTERPIECES OF IVORY ART? WITHOUT THE INSTRUCTION OF AN OLD MASTER AND A LOT OF NATURAL TALENT NEW MASTERS WILL BE HARD TO FIND. DUE TO THE EXPENSE AND DIFFICULTY OF GETTING LEGAL IVORY AND THE MINE FIELD OF LAWS AND REGULATIONS I DOUBT WE WILL EVER SEE A MASTERY OF WORKING IVORY AGAIN.
ALL IVORY IS HARD TO COME BY AND REGUALTED IN SOME PLACES AND NOT REGULATED IN OTHERS. LARGE STOCKPILES OF MANY TONS OF IVORY HAVE BEEN BURNED INSTEAD OF SOLD TO USE THE MONEY TO MANAGE AND PROTECT THE ANIMALS. I AM A ZOOLOGY MAJOR AND IT BRINGS ME SORROW TO SEE SO MANY THINGS REGULATED AND MANAGED SO POORLY. EMOTION WITH NO LOGIC NEVER LEADS TO A GOOD PLAN OR SOLUTION TO PROBLEMS BUT USUALLY CREATES MORE.
I LIKE ELEPHANTS AND OTHER CRITTERS AS WELL OR MORE THAN MOST BUT WHEN A CREATURE DIES I CAN'T SEE WASTEING THE RESOURCE.

THE CARVER DID SOMETHING I LIKED ON THE SECOND EXAMPLE HE LEFT A SPOT UNCARVED WHERE THE CENTER BULLSEYE PATTERN CAN BE SEEN (A NICE TOUCH). PERHAPS MY FAVORABLE POST WILL ENCOURAGE HIM TO RETURN AND COMMENT AS I DON'T CARE FOR THE DRIVE BY IT MAKES ME WONDER IF ITS A COMERCIAL LOOKING TO SELL SOMETHING, BUT I GIVE THE BENEFIT OF A DOUBT.

Jean · 11th May 2013, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

However.

A few weeks ago in Solo I saw quite a lot of exactly similar hilts that had been made from cunningly cut and joined bone, I was told "fish bone" and "shark bone" but I don't know what it was, except it was bone, and very, very skilfully joined. I needed to use a loupe to find the joins on most pieces.

The patination was as good or better than what I'm looking at in these pics, and the carving was considerably better.

In the hand they were difficult to differentiate from ivory; in a photo they would have been impossible to differentiate from ivory.

I know where they were carved, I know the name and address of the carver, I know where most of them were going.

Prospective purchasers of this type of thing should tread very carefully.

Hello Alan,
I looked more closely at the pictures and it seems that you are right, there are some vertical lines on the Bugis hilt which could show an assembly and the beak of the Jawa Deman hilt is definitely a separate piece. So the "patination" is probably due to the bone ageing only. Amazing!

Best regards

asomotif · 11th May 2013, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

I really wish we could move past these 'Drive By' postings where the O.P. drops a picture 'for comment' and is seen no more in the thread .

They are a kind of advertorials

Nice hilts btw, but they indeed miss the finesse of older carvings.
The patina is probably needed to more or less disguise the rough carving.

Best regards,

Rick · 12th May 2013, 12:55 AM

^^^
This .
There is a certain finesse lacking in the carving on both pieces .

A. G. Maisey · 13th May 2013, 02:12 PM

Jean, in the ones I handled the carving had been used to cover the joins and the patination had been used to cover the carving. I was told explicitly that the objective had been to produce something that could be mistaken for ivory.

Much of the "trick", if there is any trick in identifying forgeries and falsehoods is in what one has seen previously. There really is no substitute for previous knowledge, without this almost anybody can be duped.

David · 13th May 2013, 04:42 PM

OK, sorry to close this wonderful discussion, but these items are apparently currently for sale. Please be advised that this forum is NOT a place to advertise your current stock, no matter how subtle you might think you are being. Members who follow this practice will be banned from use of these forums...Period!

7th May 2013, 05:07 PM	#1
Ganja Iras Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 57	New made hilts for comments dear guys , here i post some pic's of two new made ivory hilts both of them are carved in lombok. thanks for watching ganja iras Attached Images

9th May 2013, 05:54 PM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	So what is the source of the ivory for these new hilts? Personally i am not too keen on newly made ivory items due to the protected status of the source animals. While i realize that there is a certain amount of legal ivory trade, many authorities feel that the legal trade encourages more poaching due to increased demand for the material. Once we get to the finished carved hilt, how do we know if the material is legal or black market? I would image that getting paperwork on these hilts to pass CITES requirements for customs might be a bit difficult. The carving on these is certainly intricate, though it seems to lack the skill and finesse of older examples i have seen in a similar style. Interesting, though i suppose not surprising, that these are not Lombok of Bali style hilts in spite of their origin.

9th May 2013, 06:09 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	A steady hand and some Dentist's bits on a flex shaft tool can work wonders I'd guess .

9th May 2013, 06:31 PM	#4
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	The carving quality is OK but not fantastic, and are you sure that these pieces are newly made? There are traces of patina which do not seem artificial Regards

9th May 2013, 06:41 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	He does not say that the ivory is new; perhaps it isn't, or is cleverly aged . If I might editorialise here for a moment : I really wish we could move past these 'Drive By' postings where the O.P. drops a picture 'for comment' and is seen no more in the thread .

9th May 2013, 11:31 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	If the material is ivory it is probably sourced from old bride price ivory used in the eastern islands. However. A few weeks ago in Solo I saw quite a lot of exactly similar hilts that had been made from cunningly cut and joined bone, I was told "fish bone" and "shark bone" but I don't know what it was, except it was bone, and very, very skilfully joined. I needed to use a loupe to find the joins on most pieces. The patination was as good or better than what I'm looking at in these pics, and the carving was considerably better. In the hand they were difficult to differentiate from ivory; in a photo they would have been impossible to differentiate from ivory. I know where they were carved, I know the name and address of the carver, I know where most of them were going. Prospective purchasers of this type of thing should tread very carefully.

9th May 2013, 11:46 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IT IS GOOD TO SEE SOMEONE IS STILL CARVING IVORY SO THE SKILL WILL NOT BE LOST FOREVER. THE WORKMANSHIP IS NOT AS GOOD AS THE OLD MASTERS BUT THAT IS TO BE EXPECTED. THE OLD MASTERS OF IVORY CARVING ARE PROBABLY GONE OR RETIRED LONG AGO. HOW MANY HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF CARVINGS WOULD IT TAKE TO MASTER THE MATERIAL TO CREATE SOME OF THE OLD MASTERPIECES OF IVORY ART? WITHOUT THE INSTRUCTION OF AN OLD MASTER AND A LOT OF NATURAL TALENT NEW MASTERS WILL BE HARD TO FIND. DUE TO THE EXPENSE AND DIFFICULTY OF GETTING LEGAL IVORY AND THE MINE FIELD OF LAWS AND REGULATIONS I DOUBT WE WILL EVER SEE A MASTERY OF WORKING IVORY AGAIN. ALL IVORY IS HARD TO COME BY AND REGUALTED IN SOME PLACES AND NOT REGULATED IN OTHERS. LARGE STOCKPILES OF MANY TONS OF IVORY HAVE BEEN BURNED INSTEAD OF SOLD TO USE THE MONEY TO MANAGE AND PROTECT THE ANIMALS. I AM A ZOOLOGY MAJOR AND IT BRINGS ME SORROW TO SEE SO MANY THINGS REGULATED AND MANAGED SO POORLY. EMOTION WITH NO LOGIC NEVER LEADS TO A GOOD PLAN OR SOLUTION TO PROBLEMS BUT USUALLY CREATES MORE. I LIKE ELEPHANTS AND OTHER CRITTERS AS WELL OR MORE THAN MOST BUT WHEN A CREATURE DIES I CAN'T SEE WASTEING THE RESOURCE. THE CARVER DID SOMETHING I LIKED ON THE SECOND EXAMPLE HE LEFT A SPOT UNCARVED WHERE THE CENTER BULLSEYE PATTERN CAN BE SEEN (A NICE TOUCH). PERHAPS MY FAVORABLE POST WILL ENCOURAGE HIM TO RETURN AND COMMENT AS I DON'T CARE FOR THE DRIVE BY IT MAKES ME WONDER IF ITS A COMERCIAL LOOKING TO SELL SOMETHING, BUT I GIVE THE BENEFIT OF A DOUBT.

12th May 2013, 12:55 AM	#10
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	^^^ This . There is a certain finesse lacking in the carving on both pieces .

13th May 2013, 02:12 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	Jean, in the ones I handled the carving had been used to cover the joins and the patination had been used to cover the carving. I was told explicitly that the objective had been to produce something that could be mistaken for ivory. Much of the "trick", if there is any trick in identifying forgeries and falsehoods is in what one has seen previously. There really is no substitute for previous knowledge, without this almost anybody can be duped.

13th May 2013, 04:42 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,127	OK, sorry to close this wonderful discussion, but these items are apparently currently for sale. Please be advised that this forum is NOT a place to advertise your current stock, no matter how subtle you might think you are being. Members who follow this practice will be banned from use of these forums...Period!