LONG THIN SPEAR FOR I.D

Royston · 15th September 2010, 03:46 PM

A recent local buy. In fact I got 2 of them almost identical to each other.

As you can see they resemble Masai in construction but are much more slender. The shaft of the one in the photos is, I think, a replacement. The other one is original.
The blade guard is raw hide and very stiff. ( The only reason I photographed this one is that I cannot get the guard off the other, it is currently soaking in leather oil )

They are approximately 8 1/2 feet long when assembled !!
So, can anyone identify them for me please ?

Thanks
Roy

KuKulzA28 · 15th September 2010, 03:48 PM

Uneducated guess... samburu?

Iain · 15th September 2010, 03:58 PM

I've seen these referred to as Maasai elders' spears. I don't have a good reference, but if I recall correctly they are apparently intended for cattle guarding duty, rather than the lion spears, which are reserved for the hunt.

Hopefully someone else can chime in.

Your example looks to have some age, although the forging quality is a bit rougher than what I would expect in a 19th century example. I seem to recall that in Maasai pieces a decline in quality is often attributed to the British ban on blades in the 1930s (although to be 100% honest I'm not sure if the ban was on semes or spears as well).

Best,

Iain

Lee · 15th September 2010, 04:46 PM

Per Spring (1993), this is a spear of the type carried by Maasai elders. An example measuring 200 cm in overall length is pictured on p. 112. (Your example is much nicer than my own.)

katana · 15th September 2010, 08:20 PM

I think they may be Turkana.....

Regards David

Battara · 15th September 2010, 11:06 PM

What a fascinating scabbard (?).

asomotif · 15th September 2010, 11:16 PM

Quote:

What a fascinating scabbard

Not uncommon on this type of spears.
I saw a similar one for sale a a belgian trader/collector who collected it in east africa. Can't remember the exact tribe, but i am quite sure that he did not attribute it to Zulu tribe.

Nice picture by the way of the running warrior.
Nice shield with the ostrich feathers.

Best regards,
Willem

broadaxe · 18th September 2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuKulzA28

Uneducated guess... samburu?

I think so, too. Saw them being carried by Samburu clansmen when I was in Kenya, 1981.

BTW, Cold Steel firm makes a nice modern replica

katana · 18th September 2010, 05:38 PM

Although these spears could be Samburu, I still believe Turkana is more likely (the similarity is due to the fact these are neighbouring tribes, as they are also with the Masai) It is the blade cover that convinces me of that

Below are two links.....hover your cursor over the picture to magnify......notice the blade cover

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...F%208245%20ABC

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...F%208248%20ABC

The Samburu version tends to have a narrower blade....

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...F%206180%20ABC

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 18th September 2010, 05:59 PM

Just a simple thing really, but I like these hammer marks. Clearly intentional and how they like subtle decoration that fits the form so well.

KuKulzA28 · 18th September 2010, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Although these spears could be Samburu, I still believe Turkana is more likely (the similarity is due to the fact these are neighbouring tribes, as they are also with the Masai) It is the blade cover that convinces me of that

Below are two links.....hover your cursor over the picture to magnify......notice the blade cover

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...F%208245%20ABC

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...F%208248%20ABC

The Samburu version tends to have a narrower blade....

http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...F%206180%20ABC

Regards David

Thanks for the info... I was hoping I'd be close... my knowledge of African weaponry is lacking. Guess I can't be blamed for mixing up Masai, Turkana, and Samburur spears as an amateur...

VANDOO · 18th September 2010, 07:52 PM

THIS IS THE SPEAR I SAW MOST COMMONLY CARRIED BY THE MASAI IN TANZANIA. THE LION SPEAR IS NOT COMMONLY CARRIED AND IS MORE EXPENSIVE SO THIS IS THE ONE MOST COMMONLY FOUND AMONG THE MASAI. THE LEATHER COVER IS ALSO TYPICAL OF THE ONES CARRIED BY THE MASAI THERE , MY EXAMPLES ARE THE SAME BUT HAVE A LITTLE BEAD DECORATION. THE BEADS MAY HAVE BEEN PUT THERE TO MAKE THEM MORE ATTRACTIVE TO TOURISTS OR JUST LOCAL DECORATION EITHER WAY THE ONES SOLD TO TOURISTS WERE THE SAME QUALITY AS THOSE ACTUALLY IN USE. THERE ARE LIKELY MANY TRIBES WHO CARRY SIMULAR SPEARS SO MOST LIKELY ALL IDENTIFICATIONS SO FAR HAVE BEEN ACCURATE. THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE WHICH TRIBE WOULD BE ,BUYING IT ON SITE YOURSELF OR HAVING GOOD ACCURATE PROVENANCE. LOOKS TO BE A NICE OLDER EXAMPLE CONGRADULATIONS.

Ron Anderson · 19th September 2010, 08:48 AM

Hi Vandoo

My knowledge on this area is also hardly comprehensive, but I think Turkano may be right. The 'scabbard' is exactly like those found on Turkano wrist knives. It is made of cowhide, is it? Having said that, I used to see this spear and the 'lionkiller' spear frequently in Johannesburg flea markets, identified as 'masai'. However, I never once saw them with the thong scabbard.

katana · 18th May 2011, 05:16 PM

Just to add to this thread. I recently acquired a similar spear that originated from Kenya. The seller, had lived in Kenya for some years (during the '60's) and had actually been hunting (spears) with some of the local tribes. It seems that many tribes in the area obtain weapons from several 'blacksmiths' scattered in the region, so ID'ing spears to a specific tribe is impossible.

This probably helps to explain why these and the 'lion' spears are common to the area.....rather than a specific tribe. The 'slight' differences between 'identical' spears being the blacksmith's manufacturing rather than tribal variation.

Regards David

15th September 2010, 03:46 PM	#1
Royston Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Poole England Posts: 443	LONG THIN SPEAR FOR I.D A recent local buy. In fact I got 2 of them almost identical to each other. As you can see they resemble Masai in construction but are much more slender. The shaft of the one in the photos is, I think, a replacement. The other one is original. The blade guard is raw hide and very stiff. ( The only reason I photographed this one is that I cannot get the guard off the other, it is currently soaking in leather oil ) They are approximately 8 1/2 feet long when assembled !! So, can anyone identify them for me please ? Thanks Roy Attached Images

15th September 2010, 04:46 PM	#4
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	I'll confirm that... Per Spring (1993), this is a spear of the type carried by Maasai elders. An example measuring 200 cm in overall length is pictured on p. 112. (Your example is much nicer than my own.)

15th September 2010, 08:20 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I think they may be Turkana..... Regards David Attached Images

18th September 2010, 05:59 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Just a simple thing really, but I like these hammer marks. Clearly intentional and how they like subtle decoration that fits the form so well. Attached Images

15th September 2010, 03:48 PM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Uneducated guess... samburu?

15th September 2010, 03:58 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	I've seen these referred to as Maasai elders' spears. I don't have a good reference, but if I recall correctly they are apparently intended for cattle guarding duty, rather than the lion spears, which are reserved for the hunt. Hopefully someone else can chime in. Your example looks to have some age, although the forging quality is a bit rougher than what I would expect in a 19th century example. I seem to recall that in Maasai pieces a decline in quality is often attributed to the British ban on blades in the 1930s (although to be 100% honest I'm not sure if the ban was on semes or spears as well). Best, Iain

15th September 2010, 11:06 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,220	What a fascinating scabbard (?).

18th September 2010, 05:38 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Although these spears could be Samburu, I still believe Turkana is more likely (the similarity is due to the fact these are neighbouring tribes, as they are also with the Masai) It is the blade cover that convinces me of that Below are two links.....hover your cursor over the picture to magnify......notice the blade cover http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...F%208245%20ABC http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...F%208248%20ABC The Samburu version tends to have a narrower blade.... http://anthro.amnh.org/anthropology/...F%206180%20ABC Regards David

18th September 2010, 07:52 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS IS THE SPEAR I SAW MOST COMMONLY CARRIED BY THE MASAI IN TANZANIA. THE LION SPEAR IS NOT COMMONLY CARRIED AND IS MORE EXPENSIVE SO THIS IS THE ONE MOST COMMONLY FOUND AMONG THE MASAI. THE LEATHER COVER IS ALSO TYPICAL OF THE ONES CARRIED BY THE MASAI THERE , MY EXAMPLES ARE THE SAME BUT HAVE A LITTLE BEAD DECORATION. THE BEADS MAY HAVE BEEN PUT THERE TO MAKE THEM MORE ATTRACTIVE TO TOURISTS OR JUST LOCAL DECORATION EITHER WAY THE ONES SOLD TO TOURISTS WERE THE SAME QUALITY AS THOSE ACTUALLY IN USE. THERE ARE LIKELY MANY TRIBES WHO CARRY SIMULAR SPEARS SO MOST LIKELY ALL IDENTIFICATIONS SO FAR HAVE BEEN ACCURATE. THE ONLY WAY TO BE SURE WHICH TRIBE WOULD BE ,BUYING IT ON SITE YOURSELF OR HAVING GOOD ACCURATE PROVENANCE. LOOKS TO BE A NICE OLDER EXAMPLE CONGRADULATIONS.

19th September 2010, 08:48 AM	#13
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Vandoo My knowledge on this area is also hardly comprehensive, but I think Turkano may be right. The 'scabbard' is exactly like those found on Turkano wrist knives. It is made of cowhide, is it? Having said that, I used to see this spear and the 'lionkiller' spear frequently in Johannesburg flea markets, identified as 'masai'. However, I never once saw them with the thong scabbard.

18th May 2011, 05:16 PM	#14
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Just to add to this thread. I recently acquired a similar spear that originated from Kenya. The seller, had lived in Kenya for some years (during the '60's) and had actually been hunting (spears) with some of the local tribes. It seems that many tribes in the area obtain weapons from several 'blacksmiths' scattered in the region, so ID'ing spears to a specific tribe is impossible. This probably helps to explain why these and the 'lion' spears are common to the area.....rather than a specific tribe. The 'slight' differences between 'identical' spears being the blacksmith's manufacturing rather than tribal variation. Regards David