Oddity

[Rick]

Sometimes I like a keris that is a little 'different' .

[David]

Nice. I have seen this dress form before. Can you tell us what you know about it...

[Rick]

Well, I can't tell you much, David .

It is jumbo sized and appears to be N. Coast, Cirebon; the handle appears to be a Ganesha form .

Its purpose ?

[Sajen]

Hello David,

congrats, I am green with envy!

A very similar keris is pictured in "The Kris, Mystic Weapon of the Malay World" from Edward Frey on page 57, picture i. This keris has as well an Cirebon ganesha handle, the gandar has nearly the same carving as well the wrangka while the form is different, like turned around by 180 degree.
Just have taken a picture, not very good but shows it better as just a description.
Question will be, was this a "common" style by Cirebon keris or have someone copied the in the book shown keris with own fantasy?
Can you see patinanation at the wooden parts?

Regards,

Detlef

[Naga Sasra]

I have also seen this piece before, and believe it came out of a large quality collection in Florida. I have had the opportunity to handle it in person and can add a little to the history.
From what I know this piece has been in the above mentioned collection since 1981 and as such not a copy of the one shown in Frey's book. His book was first published in 1986 with the simular type carving not included in the book until a much later edition.
As for the wrangka being 180 degrees apart, I offer no sensable explanation, perhaps someone else can enlighten us as to the significance of the wrangka being either up or down.
Looking at the photo from the book and the one Rick posted, it looks as it could have been carved by the same carver. It would be interesting if someone could shed a little more light on this "Oddity" as it is rather uncommon and could have been carved in Cirebon on the N. Coast of Jawa or perhaps even in Madura.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Naga Sasra

From what I know this piece has been in the above mentioned collection since 1981 and as such not a copy of the one shown in Frey's book. His book was first published in 1986 with the simular type carving not included in the book until a much later edition.

My edition is the third one from 2003.

[Jean]

Personally I would attribute this odd sheath & hilt to Madura and well post WW2. I was told by a expert seller/ collector from Surabaya (to be verified) that this particular style of Ganesha hilt originates from East Java and not Cirebon/ Northern Coast and is locally called Ganesha Kembang, see the attached specimen made from kemuning.
Regards

[Rick]

Well, if this is Madura work it certainly is unlike any I have seen before .
It leads me to wonder what the inspiration was for this design .

So far we have two examples of this type of carving extant; the one I have acquired and the one in Frey's book .

Why is the dress so oversized ?

Will we ever see a third example ?

[Jean]

I never saw any similar piece myself, but let us wait what Alan has to say about it. It should be noted that the 2 blades are very different.
This imaginative style of carving looks more likely to be Madurese than Northern Javanese to me and the hilt is an indication but I could be wrong
I attach the picture of a typical specimen of traditional Ganesha hilt atributed to Cirebon for comparison.
Regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

It should be noted that the 2 blades are very different.
This imaginative style of carving looks more likely to be Madurese than Northern Javanese to me and the hilt is an indication but I could be wrong

Hello Jean,

the blade from the keris shown in the book from Frey isn't to seen, the blade on my photo isn't the one which belong to the sheath. (See the hilts)

But you're correct by the hilts, both more Madura or North-East coast style, tomorrow I can show pictures.

BTW, I think I have seen here in the forum once a similar sheath, but can't remember where and may be wrong.

Regards,

Detlef

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

Hmmmm ..... looks like another 'he said' ..... 'she said' ..... 'they wrote' ..... 'I read' .....

For what it's worth, please bear in mind:

Kerises with blades around 40cm long were not rare among pre1600 Prbu-class of the Sunda.

The motif of the scabbard was typical. It represented a particular species of treefern indigenous to the highlands of Sunda.

As for the hilt, bear in mind that the Sunda, for hundreds of years, traded along the sealanes (which took in the north coast of Java) from Sumatera to the Nusa Tenggara.

..... apologies for the interruption ..... please continue .....

AND A VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL!

Best,

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Jean,

the blade from the keris shown in the book from Frey isn't to seen, the blade on my photo isn't the one which belong to the sheath. (See the hilts)
Regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,
Sorry for my mistake, the hilts looked the same but they are not indeed and I wondered how such a wide blade could fit into the sheath
Regards

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

Hullo everybody!

Kerises with blades around 40cm long were not rare among pre1600 Prbu-class of the Sunda.

The motif of the scabbard was typical. It represented a particular species of treefern indigenous to the highlands of Sunda.

Hello Amuk,
Thank you for your interesting information about the origin of this sheath! So you mean the Interior of West Java (Priangan/ Bandung/ Bogor) but not Cirebon, right?
We often neglect the krisses from West Java because little has been written about them.....
I quite don't understand the relevance of your comment about the blades, the one from Rick does not seem that long nor old?
Regards

[Sajen]

Here three more handle in the form the both shown keris have and Jean have shown in post # 7, normally attributed to Madura.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Sajen

BTW, I think I have seen here in the forum once a similar sheath, but can't remember where and may be wrong.

My remembering was ok, here is the thread and it is exactly the keris which is now in the hands from Rick: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=madura+sheath

Now I know from which large quality collection this keris coming!

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Sajen

My remembering was ok, here is the thread and it is exactly the keris which is now in the hands from Rick: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=madura+sheath

Now I know from which large quality collection this keris coming!

Nice job with the wayback machine, Professor Peabody .
I had forgotten completely about that thread .

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Rick

Nice job with the wayback machine, Professor Peabody .
I had forgotten completely about that thread .

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hello Amuk,
Thank you for your interesting information about the origin of this sheath! So you mean the Interior of West Java (Priangan/ Bandung/ Bogor) but not Cirebon, right?
We often neglect the krisses from West Java because little has been written about them.....
I quite don't understand the relevance of your comment about the blades, the one from Rick does not seem that long nor old?
Regards

Hello Jean,

I'll be as brief as I can, as I don't like to 'proslytize'.

When I say 'Sunda', I mean it in the 'archaic' sense, i.e. west of the river Pamali in the northern-central to the west of the river Progo in the southern-central.
So, in this sense, Cirebon is included.(Remember, its royal household is descended from Sri Baduga's son, who was it's first ruler after he had caused it to secede from the confederation; even though, today, it is more Djawa than Sunda; courtesy of Sultan Agung of Mataram's pan-Djawaism)

By 'highlanders', I mean the people who lived around 'the mountains' to the west with the Bogor area as its 'hub' i.e. generally 'Old Sunda'.
By 'lowlanders', I mean the people who lived around 'the hills' to the east with the Ciamis area as its 'hub' i.e. generally 'New Sunda' ( Kuda Lalean, his people and their descendants; later arrivals as refugees).

Originally, the scabbard was made after the blade and usually by a different person. Thus the scabbard was made to suit the blade and its size was a 'true' reflection of the size of the blade.
So my comment about blade size was in response to Rick's about 'jumbo sized'.
As for the apparent 'mismatch' of size between the blade and the scabbard above, perhaps the most common example familiar to 'mainstream kerisology' is the 'Keris Tajong' . I refer to such 'anomalies' as 'gertak sambel' ('bluff factor').

Best,

[Jean]

Hello Amuk,
Thank you for the clarification.
And also thanks to Sajen for the link to the old thread about this piece (I missed it as I was not born as a member yet ) and the additional pictures of similar hilts.
Regards