dagger for ID... made from a broken sword ?

asomotif · 30th January 2012, 07:47 AM

Good day fellow collectors.

Once more I am lost from the ethnographic forum.

Somebody asked me to ID this dagger.
I can make all kinds of educated guesses, but I am sure there will be much more info to get from the experts

Questions / remarks, fire away..

Ps. I think this is a shortened sword, based on the thikness of the blade near the ricasso. (see the last picture)

Best regards,
Willem

asomotif · 31st January 2012, 07:32 AM

Here some pictures of the blade and the inscription.
The owner wants to preserve the state of the blade. ie no oliling polishing etc.. So I find it quite difficult to get better images of the inscription.

Best regards,
Willem

ingelred · 31st January 2012, 08:34 AM

Hi asomotif,

I read Solingen on the blade.
How old it is and if it is a modified / shortened sword blade I don't know.

Greetings, helge

David · 31st January 2012, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

The owner wants to preserve the state of the blade. ie no oliling polishing etc..

Hi Willem...while i can appreciate this you might want to relate to the owner that if he does not do something about that active rust more deterioration will take place so he will not in fact be "preserving" the blade.

asomotif · 31st January 2012, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Hi Willem...while i can appreciate this you might want to relate to the owner that if he does not do something about that active rust more deterioration will take place so he will not in fact be "preserving" the blade.

Yes, I will advise him to apply at least some oil or grease.
Other tips for preservation without altering the state will be appreciated.

Ps. I read also something like .. OLIN G N (= solingen?

) , but could it be that easy ? The interspacing between letters seems irregular /odd.

asomotif · 1st February 2012, 11:12 PM

124 views, but no-one who has any info on age/origin/markings ?

colin henshaw · 2nd February 2012, 09:38 AM

Hi

Not my area - but it certainly looks like a dagger (perhaps a peasant weapon ?) made from a European short sword or rapier. But the experts in this field should be able to give a better opinion.

Regards.

Gavin Nugent · 2nd February 2012, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

124 views, but no-one who has any info on age/origin/markings ?

Perhaps a 124 curious learners

David R · 17th February 2012, 07:50 PM

The blade looks of better quality than the hilt, my guess is a cut down rapier or Spanish "Bilboa" which would fit with a Solingen attribution. I would check out the section on South American daggers, or even "espada ancha".

asomotif · 17th February 2012, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colin henshaw

But the experts in this field should be able to give a better opinion.

Regards.

No experts around

broadaxe · 17th February 2012, 11:53 PM

I don't think the blade was shortened, the geometry appears to be just fine. It may have been re-hilted. Seems like a naval dirk or personal peasant side arm.

M ELEY · 18th February 2012, 09:43 AM

Willem,
This is a very interesting piece, but by the shear simplicity of it, pinning down a time period and place of origin can be extremely hard. As you yourself noted, we can all make educated guesses at best. The general shape of this blade has been around from the 15th c. up to the 19th. The crudeness of the blade (no insult intended, I really like this type of sword) could either indicate a particular preference to such (certain African swords, particularly Sudanese) vs one made out of desparation (Spanish colonial, colonial American, etc). I agree that the inscription appears to be 'Solingen', who of course, made swords for many European countries, the New World colonies, etc. The horn grip, 'IF' it is original to the piece, reminds me of those found on espada in the west, but also found on African pieces. The straight, double edged, single fullered blade seems to rule out any Asian/Persian/E Indies to me anyways. The simplicity of the sword, its straight blade and cross-guard do resemble some naval types, but the thickened blade, early markings and grip shape don't strike me as naval.

If I had to put in an opinion, I'd say Spanish colonial, because:
-The horn grips resemble espada and hilt of my Brazilian cutlass
-Solingen blades were turning up in the Spanish SW,Caribbean, etc with some frequency during this period
-The primitiveness of the blade is common in this region, which FREQUENTLY recycled old blades.
-The shape reminds me of Spanish parrying daggers (main gauche) and swords. I seem to remember a Spanish dagger with a thickened, 'armor-piercing' blade like yours somewhere, perhaps on this forum???
My .02 cents

asomotif · 2nd December 2012, 10:38 PM

I checked with the experts at the dutch Army Museum in Delft this summer.

The dagger made it to their website, but no outcome yet regarding age or origin. I must say that the most complete info and suggestions came from this forum / thank you forumites.

Jim McDougall · 6th December 2012, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

124 views, but no-one who has any info on age/origin/markings ?

I couldnt help but comment on this well placed note. The numbers of lurkers/notetakers/readers is phenomenal compared to those who will participate in these threads. Some threads with responses and posts in the low hundreds have surprassed the tens of thousands mark with views.
This reveals the fact that those of us who do participate here are at least contributing to the collective knowledge on the weapons we study. It also reveals that the majority of readers out there who do not participate are simply 'learning' but lack the confidence to enter comments or observations for fear of ridicule or such nonsense.

As I have emphasized many times, there are no 'experts', simply students in degree with often advanced experience, and we here are all just learning together. It is intended to be quid pro quo and typically, many of us do not know the subject at hand especially well, but research and gather data to be shared with the community here. I am glad to see our archived material being useful, but wish more would participate as it is seldom known what relevant or key information might result from any added notes and observations.

Having said that, I agree with Mark in the probable Spanish colonial assessment , and would note that in the 19th century in the Central American colonies there seems to have been a particular affinity for dirk type sidearms. The flared pommel resembles the espada ancha profile, the blade does seem cut down from one of the Spanish arming swords of mid to latter 18th century. The markings, obviously intended to be Solingen, do seem in disarray in placement, but seem to be well copied from the authentic markings on many Spanish rapier blades which did indeed come from Solingen. I would consider this to plausibly be one of those dirks from Spains colonies in coastal regions rather than inland regions of Mexico.

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 7th December 2012, 01:57 PM

I do have a confession to make. When I first posted on this thread, I hadn't paid attention to the size of it. Thus, my comments mention this 'sword' (

). Now that I see that its a true dagger-sized implement, I still believe Span colonial. Even as such, it might have seen naval/maritime use. Love the thickened blade form.

Jim, have you ever come across a piece like this in your extensive research and many travels through the SW? BTW, hope you are doing well.

Jim McDougall · 7th December 2012, 11:47 PM

Hi Mark,
Doing great...bookmobile in dry dock through winter!

at last, last odyssey about 5000 miles.

Actually Ive never seen these kind of weapons in the 'inland' context, though espada anchas tended to become shorter, which is why they are often mistaken for Confederate Bowies etc. They had become more of a large Bowie type weapon by about 1850s and on the Plains they were often termed 'frog stickers' as I was once told.
In Levines 4th Book of Knives I think 1985, one of these Central American 'dirks' is seen but these often had a ring on them. This seems more an ersatz type fabrication of one of these. I think these were more likely in use on the 'Spanish Main' and certainly could well have seen maritime use .

All the best,
Jim

M ELEY · 8th December 2012, 06:00 AM

Glad to hear you are well, Jim!

Concerning your comments, that makes total sense concerning usage in the Spanish Main in conjunction with a Caribbean made espada or make-shift cup-hilt. It reminds me of the rapier/main gauch combo, but in this case, of a more primitive form. The more we discuss this piece, I realize I want one!

30th January 2012, 07:47 AM	#1
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	dagger for ID... made from a broken sword ? Good day fellow collectors. Once more I am lost from the ethnographic forum. Somebody asked me to ID this dagger. I can make all kinds of educated guesses, but I am sure there will be much more info to get from the experts Questions / remarks, fire away.. Ps. I think this is a shortened sword, based on the thikness of the blade near the ricasso. (see the last picture) Best regards, Willem Attached Images

31st January 2012, 07:32 AM	#2
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Here some pictures of the blade and the inscription. The owner wants to preserve the state of the blade. ie no oliling polishing etc.. So I find it quite difficult to get better images of the inscription. Best regards, Willem Attached Images

2nd December 2012, 10:38 PM	#13
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	checked with the experts. I checked with the experts at the dutch Army Museum in Delft this summer. The dagger made it to their website, but no outcome yet regarding age or origin. I must say that the most complete info and suggestions came from this forum / thank you forumites. Attached Images

31st January 2012, 08:34 AM	#3
ingelred Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Moenchengladbach, Germany Posts: 62	Hi asomotif, I read Solingen on the blade. How old it is and if it is a modified / shortened sword blade I don't know. Greetings, helge

1st February 2012, 11:12 PM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	124 views, but no-one who has any info on age/origin/markings ?

2nd February 2012, 09:38 AM	#7
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	Hi Not my area - but it certainly looks like a dagger (perhaps a peasant weapon ?) made from a European short sword or rapier. But the experts in this field should be able to give a better opinion. Regards.

17th February 2012, 07:50 PM	#9
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	The blade looks of better quality than the hilt, my guess is a cut down rapier or Spanish "Bilboa" which would fit with a Solingen attribution. I would check out the section on South American daggers, or even "espada ancha".

17th February 2012, 11:53 PM	#11
broadaxe Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 332	I don't think the blade was shortened, the geometry appears to be just fine. It may have been re-hilted. Seems like a naval dirk or personal peasant side arm.

18th February 2012, 09:43 AM	#12
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	Willem, This is a very interesting piece, but by the shear simplicity of it, pinning down a time period and place of origin can be extremely hard. As you yourself noted, we can all make educated guesses at best. The general shape of this blade has been around from the 15th c. up to the 19th. The crudeness of the blade (no insult intended, I really like this type of sword) could either indicate a particular preference to such (certain African swords, particularly Sudanese) vs one made out of desparation (Spanish colonial, colonial American, etc). I agree that the inscription appears to be 'Solingen', who of course, made swords for many European countries, the New World colonies, etc. The horn grip, 'IF' it is original to the piece, reminds me of those found on espada in the west, but also found on African pieces. The straight, double edged, single fullered blade seems to rule out any Asian/Persian/E Indies to me anyways. The simplicity of the sword, its straight blade and cross-guard do resemble some naval types, but the thickened blade, early markings and grip shape don't strike me as naval. If I had to put in an opinion, I'd say Spanish colonial, because: -The horn grips resemble espada and hilt of my Brazilian cutlass -Solingen blades were turning up in the Spanish SW,Caribbean, etc with some frequency during this period -The primitiveness of the blade is common in this region, which FREQUENTLY recycled old blades. -The shape reminds me of Spanish parrying daggers (main gauche) and swords. I seem to remember a Spanish dagger with a thickened, 'armor-piercing' blade like yours somewhere, perhaps on this forum??? My .02 cents

7th December 2012, 01:57 PM	#15
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	I do have a confession to make. When I first posted on this thread, I hadn't paid attention to the size of it. Thus, my comments mention this 'sword' ( ). Now that I see that its a true dagger-sized implement, I still believe Span colonial. Even as such, it might have seen naval/maritime use. Love the thickened blade form. Jim, have you ever come across a piece like this in your extensive research and many travels through the SW? BTW, hope you are doing well.

7th December 2012, 11:47 PM	#16
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Hi Mark, Doing great...bookmobile in dry dock through winter! at last, last odyssey about 5000 miles. Actually Ive never seen these kind of weapons in the 'inland' context, though espada anchas tended to become shorter, which is why they are often mistaken for Confederate Bowies etc. They had become more of a large Bowie type weapon by about 1850s and on the Plains they were often termed 'frog stickers' as I was once told. In Levines 4th Book of Knives I think 1985, one of these Central American 'dirks' is seen but these often had a ring on them. This seems more an ersatz type fabrication of one of these. I think these were more likely in use on the 'Spanish Main' and certainly could well have seen maritime use . All the best, Jim

8th December 2012, 06:00 AM	#17
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,100	Glad to hear you are well, Jim! Concerning your comments, that makes total sense concerning usage in the Spanish Main in conjunction with a Caribbean made espada or make-shift cup-hilt. It reminds me of the rapier/main gauch combo, but in this case, of a more primitive form. The more we discuss this piece, I realize I want one!