Question about oiling

pakana · 26th November 2007, 07:15 AM

Greetings to all,

I would like to know, according to your opinion, when is the "best" time to oil your keris, tombak..Do you wait until you discover that the blade is dry? How many times per year? I was told that too much oil can rust the blade. Is that true?Any special technique? What's the best process in order to keep the blade in good condition?Thanx

george

tunggulametung · 26th November 2007, 01:24 PM

As we are in the stage of storing/preserving, then in my opinion we need to oil the blade when it is dry or almost dry. I don't very strict with days of interval, but for myself, I think each every 2 or 3 weeks. If we are storing pieces which is not arsenic patinated, it might need a little more attention as rust will likely easier to grow on it. Still, I think it is actually not a problem to oil it as often as we want, as long as we are sure that we didn't apply too much oil to the blade surface, just a moist thin film of oil. Too much oil will not grow rust on our blades, but might left moist and unpleasent smell to the sheath, which I believe in certain degree will cause the blade to rust more easily. I uses paint brush (mine #11), and plainly all purpose mechanic oil (Singer brand), once in a while with some mixtures of cendana oil (ah, this one always too expensive

). Brush and wipe with soft cloth on smooth surfaced blades and I uses brush only technique on raw surfaced blades.

Now, I left the space for senior collectors to share their opinions...

Thanks!

hoorn178 · 26th November 2007, 07:49 PM

Dear all,

As a lubricant engineer / specialist I can tell the following about anti rust using oils. There are different types of oil. There are mineral oils (often paraffinic based), vegetable oils (e.g. palmseed oil) or animal oils (e.g. fish oil). All these oils do not prevent rusting. They only give a simpel layer on the metal surface so oxygen and / or water are kept away. Animal and / or vegetable oils tend to oxidise much easyer than mineral oils and are therefor less suitable as anti rust oils. In the long run a straight oil (without additives) is a poor anti rust agent. It is therefor that you need to oil a keris regularly to keep te rust away. You could use an oil with anti rust additives in it. Do not use e.g. WD-40 since it does not contain any anti rust additives and is simple a mixture of mineral oil with solvent in a spraycan. I always use the multi spray of OKS (German brand) on my krises. This is a mineral oil with a mild anti rust additive (in a spraycan). It gives a far better rust protection and does not stain the metal surface. (This works perfect for me. If you try it it is for your own risk

).

Cheers,
Bart.

A. G. Maisey · 27th November 2007, 06:40 AM

This oiling question has come up a few times in the past, I think.

The "right" way to oil probably depends upon what your objective is.

If your only consideration is blade preservation, then the first thing you must do is never store your blades in the wrongkos.
Ferric material should not be in contact with cellulose material if you want to avoid rust. The ideal would be to store the blade bare, supported on glass or plastic, controlled temperature and humidity, protected from dust, oiled with a good quality gun oil manufactured specifically for long-term storage of firearms.

That's the ideal, and not many people would be prepared to go that far. I'm not.

On the other hand, if you want to oil to maintain a little bit of tradition, you oil with a fragrant oil mixed with mineral oil (liquid parrafin).

My personal approach is to drench with WD40 and let it dry off overnight, then my keris oil ( recipe elsewhere in the Warung), then I wrap the blade in a plastic sleeve and replace it in the wrongko. The plastic sleeve prevents the oil drying out, and prevents ugly stains on the wrongko. The blade will usually not go back all the way into the wrongko when its wrapped in plastic, but if you store your keris in singap and keep them in a protected place, that does not matter.I have kept keris in this way for years without re-oiling.

If you want to keep your keris on constant display it may be best to make it a weekly job to lightly oil the blade, making sure that there is not an excess of oil that can run down the blade and drop onto the floor or whatever may be under the keris. At the same time dust and polish the wrongko. Keris left on constant display can get dirty very easily, and the finish will deteriorate much more quickly than if they are stored sympathetically.

What you use for oil, how often you oil, and how you store your keris depends entirely on what your objectives are.

pakana · 27th November 2007, 07:14 AM

Thanx a lot for your advice gentlemen!!

Pusaka · 11th December 2007, 02:54 PM

I think the advice of not using too much oil dates to the time in which mineral based oils were not used on keris blades. To my knowledge the oil base was coconut oil with essential oils added. The problem with this oil is that the coconut base can in time go rancid and encourage fungus to grow in the wooden sheath. The digestive enzymes released by the fungus can cause discolouration and damage to the wooden parts of the keris.

I think in ancient times oiling a keris was seen as feeding the blade, remember that many Indonesians believe keris have power.

I remember watching "The ring of fire" on dvd, a scene shot in Indonesia shows some court keris. When the blades have been washed people gather outside the court so that they can wash or even drink some of the water used. They believe that some of the power of the keris will be retained in the water even though it contains arsenic

David · 11th December 2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I think the advice of not using too much oil dates to the time in which mineral based oils were not used on keris blades. To my knowledge the oil base was coconut oil with essential oils added. The problem with this oil is that the coconut base can in time go rancid and encourage fungus to grow in the wooden sheath. The digestive enzymes released by the fungus can cause discolouration and damage to the wooden parts of the keris.

Good point and very possibly so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I think in ancient times oiling a keris was seen as feeding the blade, remember that many Indonesians believe keris have power.

I'm not Indonesian though i may well be ancient

and i certainly consider oiling my keris to be a "feeding".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

I remember watching "The ring of fire" on dvd, a scene shot in Indonesia shows some court keris. When the blades have been washed people gather outside the court so that they can wash or even drink some of the water used. They believe that some of the power of the keris will be retained in the water even though it contains arsenic

Eek! indeed!!! I have been meaning to watch this DVD since it was so kindly loaned to me. Maybe i will give it a spin tonight.

Pusaka · 11th December 2007, 09:15 PM

There is a traditional oil used in Cimande Silat called balur oil. The oil contains a coconut base with herbs added. The oils ingredients are a secret known to a few familys in Cimande village. The interesting thing about this oil is that when the oil is being made mantras are uttered over it to empower the oil.
I have always thought that keris oil may have been made in a similar way. I know that the ingredients and preparation of some keris oils were also secret.

Karttikeya · 11th December 2011, 12:08 PM

Sorry, I raise again this thread because I am interested in Pak Alan's statement "wrap the blade in a plastic sleeve". I think it will trigger new rust if we wrap the blade in plastic sleeve for long term after oiling. Yes, I agree a plastic sleeve is purposed to prevent oil dry out but in other side it will trigger new rust. Usually here, they wrap the blade in plastic sleeve only for temporary after marangi done, maybe more less 1-2 months. After that, just remove the plastic sleeve and oil the blade regularly to preserve the blade.

Jean · 11th December 2011, 01:50 PM

My personal oiling policy is purposely a minimal one and as follows:
Whenever I receive a blade especially after cleaning & warangan, I immediately apply anti-rust oil (3 in 1 brand) on it with a soft brush, let it partly dry for few minutes and wipe it with a cloth or paper towel. After that, it can stay very long without rusting nor tarnishing if you keep the blade in a dry environment (even if it is inserted into its sheath).
If the blade is Javanese (or Madurese/ Balinese in some cases), I apply a good quality pusaka oil (minyak pusaka from kraton Surakarta), let it be adsorbed onto the blade overnight, and wipe the excess with a cloth before putting it back into the sheath. Keeping the oiled blade into a plastic sleeve is a good protection but not mandatory in a dry environment.
Upon inspecting my blades, I repeat the above steps only if required.
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 11th December 2011, 08:14 PM

Karttikeya, rust attacks ferric material where water is present.

In the ideal situation ferric material should be stored on glass or plastic/perspex shelves in a climate controlled environment, ie, constant temperature, no moisture.

For the usual collector the provision of such environment is not practical, nor possible.

The important thing is this:- keep ferric material out of contact with moisture, and that includes cellulose material, which retains moisture. That means don't let your blades be stored in wood or paper or cloth.

My post # 4 sets forth simply and concisely the methods that I have used over better than 50 years. My methods work. I have blades that I have treated and stored as I describe that have not been re-oiled in better than 20 years. Even 40 odd years ago I was using split plastic bags to wrap blades in, and I still have a couple of these blades in their original wrappings.

Climate is another consideration. I do not live in a tropical climate, but I do live in a maritime climate, I'm less than 25 meters from salt water.

Plastic wrapping of a blade after oiling does work, and most definitely does not generate rust.

But if one does not wish to use plastic, that is not important, what is important is that the blade be protected from contact with moisture. This means that you do not store the unprotected blade in the wrongko, and that you exclude contact with air. This is the purpose of oil:- it excludes air. Plastic wrapping retains the oil.

I have a very great number of blades that need to be protected. I do not have the time to oil each blade every few weeks, thus I try to keep the oil on the blade for as long as possible. Plastic wrap helps to achieve this.

Pusaka · 15th December 2011, 08:03 PM

In Japan don’t they believe using pure clove oil will prevent rusting of the blade?

Personally I don’t like the idea of using synthetic mineral oil on keris, Im sure the isi wont like it

Karttikeya · 16th December 2011, 02:10 AM

I try Pak Alan's recipe by mixing mineral oil with scented oil, the point is how to preserve the blade optimally, so no matter what oil we will use since it can give optimum blade preservation, even if you can afford good gun oil like Pak Alan mentioned, it will give far better protection for your blade, here I face difficulty to get gun oil, that's why I will follow Pak Alan recipe by using mineral oil as base oil, but again oil recipe is subjective for every person. Before I just use sandalwood oil only, no other oil as mixture, but only sandalwood oil can't give good protection, even in smallest degree, not more than fragnance.
I'd like to question Pak Alan about wrapping plastic sleeve, if there is wood or cellulose chips in the blade and I wrap the blade with plastic sleeve,will it generate new rust? What is the best step before I wrap the blade with plastic sleeve? Let's say my blades have already been coated with arsenic long time ago, currently I just need to oil regurly and now I want to use plastic sleeve, what should I do with my blade before wrapping with plastic sleeve?
Thanking you in advance..

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2011, 03:26 AM

If I need to prepare a blade from the beginning, I usually brush it thoroughly with mineral turpentine to remove old oil and dirt, then I spray, or rather drench, with WD40, I allow that to stand overnight and dry off, then I apply the scented oil, wrap in plastic, and its done.

Singer sewing machine oil is a good oil to use too, maybe better than the medicinal paraffin that I use, and its easily obtainable in Indonesia, and cheap.

Karttikeya · 16th December 2011, 03:55 AM

If I oil the blade then wrap with plastic without brushing throughly, drenching and stick with old oil, what will happen? Will it generate new rust or no?

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2011, 06:34 AM

Many factors are involved.

Do the job properly and you'll never need to find out if doing it improperly creates problems.

Pusaka · 16th December 2011, 02:55 PM

Jojoba oil as a base could be interesting to test, although it is called an oil in reality it is a wax which is liquid at room temperature. Jojoba base with a few drops of scented oil added could make a good keris oil.

http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/emerald-p...oba-RISbYdkb8P

The above study shows anti corrosion effect on Iron of Jojoba oil

Rick · 16th December 2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pusaka

Jojoba oil as a base could be interesting to test, although it is called an oil in reality it is a wax which is liquid at room temperature. Jojoba base with a few drops of scented oil added could make a good keris oil.

http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/emerald-p...oba-RISbYdkb8P

The above study shows anti corrosion effect on Iron of Jojoba oil

I'm sure we have some in the cupboard; Wife is a soapmaker .
I'll check it out; also have some nice sandalwood to add .

[EDIT]
A note from my Wife; Jojoba will go rancid if not kept cold .

silkreeler · 16th September 2014, 09:49 AM

Speaking of keeping away moisture, is it a good idea to drop some grains of silica desiccant into the warangka assuming there's a little space at the bottom? This would be for kerises that I put on display so I don't want any plastic cover in sight.

A. G. Maisey · 16th September 2014, 12:52 PM

Very often the gandar will be open at the bottom, or open at the sides, especially in a Jawa keris. I don't know what the effect of the silica gel might be, if it were to be left in the wrongko. Possibly the result might not be so good.

I leave big bags of silica gel in with some of my keris, I was given these, I didn't go out of my way to buy them, I figure they're probably helpful.

I understand the "no plastic on display" principle. I use plastic all the time on everything, but on the couple of keris I do have on display, there is no plastic visible, I simply pay more attention to these keris, oil them more often, inspect them more often.

26th November 2007, 01:24 PM	#2
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	As we are in the stage of storing/preserving, then in my opinion we need to oil the blade when it is dry or almost dry. I don't very strict with days of interval, but for myself, I think each every 2 or 3 weeks. If we are storing pieces which is not arsenic patinated, it might need a little more attention as rust will likely easier to grow on it. Still, I think it is actually not a problem to oil it as often as we want, as long as we are sure that we didn't apply too much oil to the blade surface, just a moist thin film of oil. Too much oil will not grow rust on our blades, but might left moist and unpleasent smell to the sheath, which I believe in certain degree will cause the blade to rust more easily. I uses paint brush (mine #11), and plainly all purpose mechanic oil (Singer brand), once in a while with some mixtures of cendana oil (ah, this one always too expensive). Brush and wipe with soft cloth on smooth surfaced blades and I uses brush only technique on raw surfaced blades. Now, I left the space for senior collectors to share their opinions... Thanks!

26th November 2007, 07:49 PM	#3
hoorn178 Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Netherlands Posts: 23	oiling Dear all, As a lubricant engineer / specialist I can tell the following about anti rust using oils. There are different types of oil. There are mineral oils (often paraffinic based), vegetable oils (e.g. palmseed oil) or animal oils (e.g. fish oil). All these oils do not prevent rusting. They only give a simpel layer on the metal surface so oxygen and / or water are kept away. Animal and / or vegetable oils tend to oxidise much easyer than mineral oils and are therefor less suitable as anti rust oils. In the long run a straight oil (without additives) is a poor anti rust agent. It is therefor that you need to oil a keris regularly to keep te rust away. You could use an oil with anti rust additives in it. Do not use e.g. WD-40 since it does not contain any anti rust additives and is simple a mixture of mineral oil with solvent in a spraycan. I always use the multi spray of OKS (German brand) on my krises. This is a mineral oil with a mild anti rust additive (in a spraycan). It gives a far better rust protection and does not stain the metal surface. (This works perfect for me. If you try it it is for your own risk ). Cheers, Bart.

16th December 2011, 02:55 PM	#17
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	Jojoba oil as a base could be interesting to test, although it is called an oil in reality it is a wax which is liquid at room temperature. Jojoba base with a few drops of scented oil added could make a good keris oil. http://www.deepdyve.com/lp/emerald-p...oba-RISbYdkb8P The above study shows anti corrosion effect on Iron of Jojoba oil Last edited by Rick; 16th December 2011 at 05:29 PM.

26th November 2007, 07:15 AM	#1
pakana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 74	Question about oiling Greetings to all, I would like to know, according to your opinion, when is the "best" time to oil your keris, tombak..Do you wait until you discover that the blade is dry? How many times per year? I was told that too much oil can rust the blade. Is that true?Any special technique? What's the best process in order to keep the blade in good condition?Thanx george

27th November 2007, 06:40 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	This oiling question has come up a few times in the past, I think. The "right" way to oil probably depends upon what your objective is. If your only consideration is blade preservation, then the first thing you must do is never store your blades in the wrongkos. Ferric material should not be in contact with cellulose material if you want to avoid rust. The ideal would be to store the blade bare, supported on glass or plastic, controlled temperature and humidity, protected from dust, oiled with a good quality gun oil manufactured specifically for long-term storage of firearms. That's the ideal, and not many people would be prepared to go that far. I'm not. On the other hand, if you want to oil to maintain a little bit of tradition, you oil with a fragrant oil mixed with mineral oil (liquid parrafin). My personal approach is to drench with WD40 and let it dry off overnight, then my keris oil ( recipe elsewhere in the Warung), then I wrap the blade in a plastic sleeve and replace it in the wrongko. The plastic sleeve prevents the oil drying out, and prevents ugly stains on the wrongko. The blade will usually not go back all the way into the wrongko when its wrapped in plastic, but if you store your keris in singap and keep them in a protected place, that does not matter.I have kept keris in this way for years without re-oiling. If you want to keep your keris on constant display it may be best to make it a weekly job to lightly oil the blade, making sure that there is not an excess of oil that can run down the blade and drop onto the floor or whatever may be under the keris. At the same time dust and polish the wrongko. Keris left on constant display can get dirty very easily, and the finish will deteriorate much more quickly than if they are stored sympathetically. What you use for oil, how often you oil, and how you store your keris depends entirely on what your objectives are.

27th November 2007, 07:14 AM	#5
pakana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 74	Thanx a lot for your advice gentlemen!!

11th December 2007, 02:54 PM	#6
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	I think the advice of not using too much oil dates to the time in which mineral based oils were not used on keris blades. To my knowledge the oil base was coconut oil with essential oils added. The problem with this oil is that the coconut base can in time go rancid and encourage fungus to grow in the wooden sheath. The digestive enzymes released by the fungus can cause discolouration and damage to the wooden parts of the keris. I think in ancient times oiling a keris was seen as feeding the blade, remember that many Indonesians believe keris have power. I remember watching "The ring of fire" on dvd, a scene shot in Indonesia shows some court keris. When the blades have been washed people gather outside the court so that they can wash or even drink some of the water used. They believe that some of the power of the keris will be retained in the water even though it contains arsenic

11th December 2007, 09:15 PM	#8
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	There is a traditional oil used in Cimande Silat called balur oil. The oil contains a coconut base with herbs added. The oils ingredients are a secret known to a few familys in Cimande village. The interesting thing about this oil is that when the oil is being made mantras are uttered over it to empower the oil. I have always thought that keris oil may have been made in a similar way. I know that the ingredients and preparation of some keris oils were also secret.

11th December 2011, 12:08 PM	#9
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	Sorry, I raise again this thread because I am interested in Pak Alan's statement "wrap the blade in a plastic sleeve". I think it will trigger new rust if we wrap the blade in plastic sleeve for long term after oiling. Yes, I agree a plastic sleeve is purposed to prevent oil dry out but in other side it will trigger new rust. Usually here, they wrap the blade in plastic sleeve only for temporary after marangi done, maybe more less 1-2 months. After that, just remove the plastic sleeve and oil the blade regularly to preserve the blade.

11th December 2011, 01:50 PM	#10
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	My personal oiling policy is purposely a minimal one and as follows: Whenever I receive a blade especially after cleaning & warangan, I immediately apply anti-rust oil (3 in 1 brand) on it with a soft brush, let it partly dry for few minutes and wipe it with a cloth or paper towel. After that, it can stay very long without rusting nor tarnishing if you keep the blade in a dry environment (even if it is inserted into its sheath). If the blade is Javanese (or Madurese/ Balinese in some cases), I apply a good quality pusaka oil (minyak pusaka from kraton Surakarta), let it be adsorbed onto the blade overnight, and wipe the excess with a cloth before putting it back into the sheath. Keeping the oiled blade into a plastic sleeve is a good protection but not mandatory in a dry environment. Upon inspecting my blades, I repeat the above steps only if required. Best regards

11th December 2011, 08:14 PM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Karttikeya, rust attacks ferric material where water is present. In the ideal situation ferric material should be stored on glass or plastic/perspex shelves in a climate controlled environment, ie, constant temperature, no moisture. For the usual collector the provision of such environment is not practical, nor possible. The important thing is this:- keep ferric material out of contact with moisture, and that includes cellulose material, which retains moisture. That means don't let your blades be stored in wood or paper or cloth. My post # 4 sets forth simply and concisely the methods that I have used over better than 50 years. My methods work. I have blades that I have treated and stored as I describe that have not been re-oiled in better than 20 years. Even 40 odd years ago I was using split plastic bags to wrap blades in, and I still have a couple of these blades in their original wrappings. Climate is another consideration. I do not live in a tropical climate, but I do live in a maritime climate, I'm less than 25 meters from salt water. Plastic wrapping of a blade after oiling does work, and most definitely does not generate rust. But if one does not wish to use plastic, that is not important, what is important is that the blade be protected from contact with moisture. This means that you do not store the unprotected blade in the wrongko, and that you exclude contact with air. This is the purpose of oil:- it excludes air. Plastic wrapping retains the oil. I have a very great number of blades that need to be protected. I do not have the time to oil each blade every few weeks, thus I try to keep the oil on the blade for as long as possible. Plastic wrap helps to achieve this.

15th December 2011, 08:03 PM	#12
Pusaka Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 341	In Japan don’t they believe using pure clove oil will prevent rusting of the blade? Personally I don’t like the idea of using synthetic mineral oil on keris, Im sure the isi wont like it

16th December 2011, 02:10 AM	#13
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	I try Pak Alan's recipe by mixing mineral oil with scented oil, the point is how to preserve the blade optimally, so no matter what oil we will use since it can give optimum blade preservation, even if you can afford good gun oil like Pak Alan mentioned, it will give far better protection for your blade, here I face difficulty to get gun oil, that's why I will follow Pak Alan recipe by using mineral oil as base oil, but again oil recipe is subjective for every person. Before I just use sandalwood oil only, no other oil as mixture, but only sandalwood oil can't give good protection, even in smallest degree, not more than fragnance. I'd like to question Pak Alan about wrapping plastic sleeve, if there is wood or cellulose chips in the blade and I wrap the blade with plastic sleeve,will it generate new rust? What is the best step before I wrap the blade with plastic sleeve? Let's say my blades have already been coated with arsenic long time ago, currently I just need to oil regurly and now I want to use plastic sleeve, what should I do with my blade before wrapping with plastic sleeve? Thanking you in advance..

16th December 2011, 03:26 AM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	If I need to prepare a blade from the beginning, I usually brush it thoroughly with mineral turpentine to remove old oil and dirt, then I spray, or rather drench, with WD40, I allow that to stand overnight and dry off, then I apply the scented oil, wrap in plastic, and its done. Singer sewing machine oil is a good oil to use too, maybe better than the medicinal paraffin that I use, and its easily obtainable in Indonesia, and cheap.

16th December 2011, 03:55 AM	#15
Karttikeya Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 54	If I oil the blade then wrap with plastic without brushing throughly, drenching and stick with old oil, what will happen? Will it generate new rust or no?

16th December 2011, 06:34 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Many factors are involved. Do the job properly and you'll never need to find out if doing it improperly creates problems.

16th September 2014, 09:49 AM	#19
silkreeler Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 27	Speaking of keeping away moisture, is it a good idea to drop some grains of silica desiccant into the warangka assuming there's a little space at the bottom? This would be for kerises that I put on display so I don't want any plastic cover in sight.

16th September 2014, 12:52 PM	#20
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,877	Very often the gandar will be open at the bottom, or open at the sides, especially in a Jawa keris. I don't know what the effect of the silica gel might be, if it were to be left in the wrongko. Possibly the result might not be so good. I leave big bags of silica gel in with some of my keris, I was given these, I didn't go out of my way to buy them, I figure they're probably helpful. I understand the "no plastic on display" principle. I use plastic all the time on everything, but on the couple of keris I do have on display, there is no plastic visible, I simply pay more attention to these keris, oil them more often, inspect them more often.