Help Identify this Sword - (Talwar, Shamshir ?)

G S T · 21st November 2011, 07:16 PM

Hey All,

I bought this Sword in northern India about 2 years back, and since then i am trying to identify the origin of this sword. The following are the detailed attributes.

Blade - Made of Sukhela (mild Indian steel) and measures 32 inches long.
Full tang, Riveted to the Hilt and Jammed with Resin.

Hilt - Made of Barasingha (reindeer) Horn. The knuckle guard is attached to the quillon.
Thou the hilt has typical talwar features, but it lacks the bottom disc, and The lower 'beak' resembles that of a Shamshir.

The Overall design resembles the Indian Talwar, But The hilt and the curvature of the blade are two features which are unlike the Talwar. I have been trying to search for a similar sword but have not found one which looks like this one.

What could be the origin of this sword ?
has anyone seen a Sword like this before ?

Please provide your valuable inputs

Thanks
GST

___________

katana · 22nd November 2011, 05:04 PM

Hi GST,
I would say a shamshir blade ..... a deliberately modified or 're-used' damaged tulwar hilt with the disc/pommel missing ... and obviously horn slabs rivetted to the tang to complete the hilt.
I am saying shamshir blade due to the fact it does not have a rat-tailed or similar tang that the tulwar would have had.
Whether this was a later marriage ('bitsa' sword) or one born out of necessity and, therefore, part of its history isn't clear, I'm afraid.

Kind Regards David

Rick · 22nd November 2011, 06:27 PM

I see an Afghan influence in the hilt scales .

Stan S. · 22nd November 2011, 08:35 PM

The best way to tell tulwar from shamshir IMO is to look for the presence of a ricasso (the unsharpened area at the base of the blade). Ricasso on this type of blades is a unique feature identifying a sword as a tulwar. If the blade is sharpened evenly all the way to the hilt, it can be called a shamshir. From the pictures you provided, it does not appear that the ricasso is there but perhaps I am just not seeing it? The hilt shape. although not a typical one, definetely points at Indo Persia as a country of origin.

In conclusion I'd like to say that it is is a lovely and unusual sword you have there!

kronckew · 23rd November 2011, 12:53 AM

my initial impression (before reading the other replies) was/is afghani.

Atlantia · 23rd November 2011, 03:15 PM

I can't say with total certanty, but this style of hilt is in my experience a modern hybrid design. A way to spruce-up the simple steel Tulwar hilt and (i assumed) to make it more comfortable and widen it's appeal to modern buyers (including the export market).
I believe that the similar examples I've seen hail from Rajathan, N/N-W India.
If seen similar hilts described as being bone or camel bone.

That said, I can the others points about Afghan similarities and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to place it in Afghanistan and make it a 'Taliban Tulwar'.

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2011, 08:28 AM

GST welcome to the forum! and thanks for posting this unusual example...gotta admit I hadn't seen anything with reindeer horn before!
Totally agree with the consensus here, a tulwar which has been redone with this hilt to become a rather appealing unusual example, and most likely in Afghan regions.
A tulwar I would say.

A.alnakkas · 24th November 2011, 09:35 AM

Hello,

What Jim said pretty much. But am interested in the blade, its missing a riccaso which makes me think its not indian manufacture?

Jim McDougall · 24th November 2011, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Hello,

What Jim said pretty much. But am interested in the blade, its missing a riccaso which makes me think its not indian manufacture?

Spot on Lofty! Exactly as Stan pointed out in his post, characteristically Indian made blades will have that distinct ricasso which was effectively to allow protection for the forefinger often wrapped over the quillon in Indian sword technique with tulwars.
This is more likely an apparantly well worn European blade, and not likely Persian as it does not actually have the features of those shamshir blades.
Even when 'tulwars' are mounted with shamshir blades in India (quite common actually in Mughal courts) they are typically termed tulwar as this is of course the word in general for sword there.
There are tulwars with Persian style hilts rather than the Indo-Persian disc pommel types, again called 'tulwar' but with Persian form hilt noted.

I would add here that in Tirri, there are examples of tulwars sans the disc pommel which he notes are removed as per Afghan fighting preference, which seems correct. I have actually seen tulwar forms which appeared to have been produced without the pommel disc, one in discussions with a British Brigadier who took it from a tribesman in fighting on plains near Khyber regions in the 1930s.

Terminology in ethnographic weapons can be maddening!!!

G S T · 30th November 2011, 07:20 PM

Hey All,

Firstly, i thank all of you for your comments & info. It was my first post and i am delighted to see such an informative response to my query.

Katana / David & Atlantia - Thanks for your response. Initially i thought the same that this was a remodeled or restored Tulwar, But whats contradictory is the fact that the blade is 32 Inches long and the Hilt is over 5 Inches long, The full length of the Blade being 37 Inches. If we assume this was a Talwar and was later modified, it would have been close to 40 inches, Including the 'Rat Tail' Talwar Tip.
I have not seen many Talwars over 36 Inches (3 Feet) long.

Secondly, The Blade is not the usual tempered Steel or Leaf Spring bar, Its made of a Mild Indian Steel called Sukhela. Thou its not rare, but it isn't common either. It has a fantastic temper and it can flex amazingly yet retain its shape. The elasticity of this blade is phenomenal. I wouldn't wish to modify such a Blade just to make the sword more appealing to a buyer..But however, thats just my opinion.

Again, as you rightly said, nothing can be said for certain. We all know how Sword smiths Love to 'marry' unusual Combinations of Blades & Hilts.
I have a East Indian Dao with a Talwar hilt.

Rick & Kronckew - Many of my Friends and i had the same impression that it was an Afghan sword. But the unique characteristics of the Hilt just confuse us.

Stan. S & A. Alnakkas - The Blade does Not have a Ricasso. Thats another striking feature about this Blade. 90% of the Indian Swords (pre or Contemporary) have a Large Solid Ricasso. Many a times, manufacturer's name/insignia is stamped over it.I have attached 3 more pics which show a bit more of the Blade & hilt. As you can see in the pics, the ricasso is absent and the blade is sharp all the way till the hilt.

Iain - Thanks for the Link. Thats a beauty there on eBay, it sure does look a bit like mine.

Jim - The Hilt is actually made of the horn of a Swamp deer known as BARASINGHA.
'Bara' is Hindi means 12 and 'Singha' refers to horns. Its refers to the Several Horn / Horn tips which this animal has.
As far as i know, the Barasingha belongs to the reindeer family.

The Term Talwar in hindi means a Sword, any sword. In fact, when i first became interested in swords, i was surprised to know that the Talwar is a type of sword and Not a word for referring to all swords in general
In India, Any sword is referred to as a Talwar. Therefore, may it be a Shamshir, Khilij, Khanda or Tegha, In general all are referred to as Talwars.

So everyone, whats the verdict then, Indian hilt which is probably modified with a Firang (foreign) blade ?

Thank you all
G S T

Atlantia · 1st December 2011, 04:43 PM

Hi GST,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to everyone, it's appreciated.
Can you show some more pictures of the blade, some daylight shots of clean areas of the steel in close-up if possible?

It's an interesting thing, how does it feel?

Best
Gene

P.S. Welcome to the forums.

Jim McDougall · 3rd December 2011, 08:29 AM

GST, welcome to our forum, and thank you very much for responding to each of us personally and with such attentive detail, very much appreciated.

I'm very curious about the 'sukhela steel'. The term sukhela with reference in
Indian swords typically refers to the straight blade type tulwar hilted forms (Rawson, p.42-44) . It is noted that many of these type swords as well as khandas are mounted with European blades imported from the ports of west India, and that the iron and steel work in Deccan regions was unsatisfactory.
The only references to sukhela steel I have found are from the collections in South Kensington Museum (catalog 1874, p.316) and Burton (1884, p.110) in which several types of steel from Spain and Portugal are listed as Ispat, Tolad and Sukhela. Suggestions are of course of high quality steel and that the term was used for a sword (of this steel presumably) in Hindu parlance.

The curved blade on this sword does not correspond to the suggestions of the 'sukhela' swords with straight blades, but perhaps of course could still be of this kind of steel?
With the notariety of Indian steel used in so many cultures for so long, I wonder why they were using Spanish and Portuguese steel? Would that have been because of the moratorium by the British on steel production in the 1860s?

These questions of course go to the blade. The grips are fascinating, especially in this material, and remind me very much in profile of Khyber knives. Sabres made for Sillidar cavalry regiments in India typically had blades with these kinds of shallow curve and though often produced by British makers for India Stores, there were armourers of course in India as well.
Blades for these regiments ranged typically from 30" to 33". These ersatz armourers in frontier regions also refurbished weapons during the many years of volatility through so many of these regions well through the 20th century, so unusual hybrids are actually much to be expected I would think.

21st November 2011, 07:16 PM	#1
G S T Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 2	Help Identify this Sword - (Talwar, Shamshir ?) Hey All, I bought this Sword in northern India about 2 years back, and since then i am trying to identify the origin of this sword. The following are the detailed attributes. Blade - Made of Sukhela (mild Indian steel) and measures 32 inches long. Full tang, Riveted to the Hilt and Jammed with Resin. Hilt - Made of Barasingha (reindeer) Horn. The knuckle guard is attached to the quillon. Thou the hilt has typical talwar features, but it lacks the bottom disc, and The lower 'beak' resembles that of a Shamshir. The Overall design resembles the Indian Talwar, But The hilt and the curvature of the blade are two features which are unlike the Talwar. I have been trying to search for a similar sword but have not found one which looks like this one. What could be the origin of this sword ? has anyone seen a Sword like this before ? Please provide your valuable inputs Thanks GST ___________ Attached Images

30th November 2011, 07:20 PM	#10
G S T Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Posts: 2	Hey All, Firstly, i thank all of you for your comments & info. It was my first post and i am delighted to see such an informative response to my query. Katana / David & Atlantia - Thanks for your response. Initially i thought the same that this was a remodeled or restored Tulwar, But whats contradictory is the fact that the blade is 32 Inches long and the Hilt is over 5 Inches long, The full length of the Blade being 37 Inches. If we assume this was a Talwar and was later modified, it would have been close to 40 inches, Including the 'Rat Tail' Talwar Tip. I have not seen many Talwars over 36 Inches (3 Feet) long. Secondly, The Blade is not the usual tempered Steel or Leaf Spring bar, Its made of a Mild Indian Steel called Sukhela. Thou its not rare, but it isn't common either. It has a fantastic temper and it can flex amazingly yet retain its shape. The elasticity of this blade is phenomenal. I wouldn't wish to modify such a Blade just to make the sword more appealing to a buyer..But however, thats just my opinion. Again, as you rightly said, nothing can be said for certain. We all know how Sword smiths Love to 'marry' unusual Combinations of Blades & Hilts. I have a East Indian Dao with a Talwar hilt. Rick & Kronckew - Many of my Friends and i had the same impression that it was an Afghan sword. But the unique characteristics of the Hilt just confuse us. Stan. S & A. Alnakkas - The Blade does Not have a Ricasso. Thats another striking feature about this Blade. 90% of the Indian Swords (pre or Contemporary) have a Large Solid Ricasso. Many a times, manufacturer's name/insignia is stamped over it.I have attached 3 more pics which show a bit more of the Blade & hilt. As you can see in the pics, the ricasso is absent and the blade is sharp all the way till the hilt. Iain - Thanks for the Link. Thats a beauty there on eBay, it sure does look a bit like mine. Jim - The Hilt is actually made of the horn of a Swamp deer known as BARASINGHA. 'Bara' is Hindi means 12 and 'Singha' refers to horns. Its refers to the Several Horn / Horn tips which this animal has. As far as i know, the Barasingha belongs to the reindeer family. The Term Talwar in hindi means a Sword, any sword. In fact, when i first became interested in swords, i was surprised to know that the Talwar is a type of sword and Not a word for referring to all swords in general In India, Any sword is referred to as a Talwar. Therefore, may it be a Shamshir, Khilij, Khanda or Tegha, In general all are referred to as Talwars. So everyone, whats the verdict then, Indian hilt which is probably modified with a Firang (foreign) blade ? Thank you all G S T Attached Images

22nd November 2011, 05:04 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi GST, I would say a shamshir blade ..... a deliberately modified or 're-used' damaged tulwar hilt with the disc/pommel missing ... and obviously horn slabs rivetted to the tang to complete the hilt. I am saying shamshir blade due to the fact it does not have a rat-tailed or similar tang that the tulwar would have had. Whether this was a later marriage ('bitsa' sword) or one born out of necessity and, therefore, part of its history isn't clear, I'm afraid. Kind Regards David

22nd November 2011, 06:27 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	I see an Afghan influence in the hilt scales .

22nd November 2011, 08:35 PM	#4
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	The best way to tell tulwar from shamshir IMO is to look for the presence of a ricasso (the unsharpened area at the base of the blade). Ricasso on this type of blades is a unique feature identifying a sword as a tulwar. If the blade is sharpened evenly all the way to the hilt, it can be called a shamshir. From the pictures you provided, it does not appear that the ricasso is there but perhaps I am just not seeing it? The hilt shape. although not a typical one, definetely points at Indo Persia as a country of origin. In conclusion I'd like to say that it is is a lovely and unusual sword you have there!

23rd November 2011, 12:53 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	my initial impression (before reading the other replies) was/is afghani.

23rd November 2011, 03:15 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I can't say with total certanty, but this style of hilt is in my experience a modern hybrid design. A way to spruce-up the simple steel Tulwar hilt and (i assumed) to make it more comfortable and widen it's appeal to modern buyers (including the export market). I believe that the similar examples I've seen hail from Rajathan, N/N-W India. If seen similar hilts described as being bone or camel bone. That said, I can the others points about Afghan similarities and it wouldn't be much of a stretch to place it in Afghanistan and make it a 'Taliban Tulwar'.

24th November 2011, 08:28 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	GST welcome to the forum! and thanks for posting this unusual example...gotta admit I hadn't seen anything with reindeer horn before! Totally agree with the consensus here, a tulwar which has been redone with this hilt to become a rather appealing unusual example, and most likely in Afghan regions. A tulwar I would say.

24th November 2011, 09:35 AM	#8
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Hello, What Jim said pretty much. But am interested in the blade, its missing a riccaso which makes me think its not indian manufacture?

1st December 2011, 04:43 PM	#11
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi GST, Thanks for taking the time to reply to everyone, it's appreciated. Can you show some more pictures of the blade, some daylight shots of clean areas of the steel in close-up if possible? It's an interesting thing, how does it feel? Best Gene P.S. Welcome to the forums.

3rd December 2011, 08:29 AM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,950	GST, welcome to our forum, and thank you very much for responding to each of us personally and with such attentive detail, very much appreciated. I'm very curious about the 'sukhela steel'. The term sukhela with reference in Indian swords typically refers to the straight blade type tulwar hilted forms (Rawson, p.42-44) . It is noted that many of these type swords as well as khandas are mounted with European blades imported from the ports of west India, and that the iron and steel work in Deccan regions was unsatisfactory. The only references to sukhela steel I have found are from the collections in South Kensington Museum (catalog 1874, p.316) and Burton (1884, p.110) in which several types of steel from Spain and Portugal are listed as Ispat, Tolad and Sukhela. Suggestions are of course of high quality steel and that the term was used for a sword (of this steel presumably) in Hindu parlance. The curved blade on this sword does not correspond to the suggestions of the 'sukhela' swords with straight blades, but perhaps of course could still be of this kind of steel? With the notariety of Indian steel used in so many cultures for so long, I wonder why they were using Spanish and Portuguese steel? Would that have been because of the moratorium by the British on steel production in the 1860s? These questions of course go to the blade. The grips are fascinating, especially in this material, and remind me very much in profile of Khyber knives. Sabres made for Sillidar cavalry regiments in India typically had blades with these kinds of shallow curve and though often produced by British makers for India Stores, there were armourers of course in India as well. Blades for these regiments ranged typically from 30" to 33". These ersatz armourers in frontier regions also refurbished weapons during the many years of volatility through so many of these regions well through the 20th century, so unusual hybrids are actually much to be expected I would think.