A Unique Kattar?

[Tomb22]

Gentlemen: I am new to this forum. I have what appears to be a somewhat unique Katar. It has serrated edges. The blade is much more slender than the pictures I have seen on this site and elsewhere. The handle is quite small and the protective bars are considerably shorter then the ones you have shown. It is riveted which according to the Gatka site, indicates 16th to 17th century European blade. There is an interesting design on the blade, near the hilt of a Tiger biting a deer. The blade is 41.3 cm long. Overall length is 55.9 cm.

I am looking for more information about history. Have any of you seen this style before? I have been told the following about the blade by a very nice gentleman whose picture sure makes sense as follows:

"The blade is from a "Cobra" sword. Here is a near-identical one: http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1941 . Artzi Yarom from Oriental-Arms has it listed as an Indo-Afghan Pahari sword, but I understand its origin is more likely the Deccan (central Indian plateau). 16th century is likely, these blades are old and rare, and certainly local, not European."

The same gentleman indicated that there are several folks on this forum that have significant knowledge about Kattars. I would really appreciate your comments about any history or understanding about the attached pictures.

Thank you,
Tom Binford

[rand]

Hello Tom,

Here is a bit of history relating to the name of your dagger. The popular collectors term is katar, but this terminology is based on a miistake by Eggerton in his own book on Indian Arms and Armor where ealier in the book he used the correct name. but the term katar became very popular because Eggertons books was the mainrefernece for Indian arms and armor for decades. Now with more information published it has been established that beyond a doubtm Jamadhar, Jamdhar or Jamdhara is the correct term at th time of use.

To quote from Pants
"Indian Arms and Armor Vol II) page 163, "The etymology of the word jamadhar, as given by J. Shakespear, is jam, (from the Sanskrit yama i.e., death or God of Death) and dhar (from dhaar or sharp edge or dadh i.e., tooth).

On the blade of one of the jajadhars the name of the weapon together with its explanation is explicitly given. The inscription in Sanskrit reads " this Kadarika jamadhar i.e., the tooth of the God of Death"(fig. 507)."


Another term that may be used for you dagger if the blade thickens at the point to form an iron piercing tip is jamadhar-zirah-bhonk.

rand

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Tom,
Pretty fantastic looking katar! and I am inclined to agree with the Deccan attribution, though I would defer to Jens for the final word on that as he much more familiar with katars.

The weapon that you refer to from Oriental Arms does indeed have a similar shaped blade with reinforced point, however does not of course have the serrated edges. There have been quite a few discussions on this unusual blade feature ( coincidentally on the concurrent thread 'what did I buy? on an unusual polearm).

The sword on Oriental Arms is , as you note, described as Indo-Afghan. This probably derives from other examples with this dynamically flared blade forte that had similiar blades and Afghan form hilts similar to the paluoar. This same blade feature is seen on other Indian sword blades with nagan symbolism and the source of the 'cobra' term. The 'pahari' term is actually used in degree describing 'the mountain people' .

It is interesting to note that it is sometimes difficult to determine where dagger ends and sword begins, as in the case of katars where the blades can sometimes reach 30". The note you mention concerning riveted blades is also interesting, but this was not only used on European blades. In Stone (fig.434 #19) a katar with serpentine blade of 23" riveted to hilt, suggesting this practice applied to unusual blades that are native, as you have noted with yours.

The large discoid form on your blade seems to correspond to certain high quality weapons described in Robert Elgood's "Hindu Arms and Armour" (p.123) as having a chakra at the forte of the blade, rather than the nagan or cobra association in the Oriental Arms example. Although not exactly a disc it seems to align more with that than the flared nagan shape. It is important to note that the 'chakra' or disc, is also known as the circular weapon also termed the quoit and most often associated with Sikh weaponry. In this case the chakra disc alludes to classical Hindu mythology and swords incorporating this device are extremely highly regarded as kingly weapons (p.240). This , along with the very unusual serrated edges, suggest this katar is likely a court weapon.

Rand, excellent reference you have noted concerning the use of the term katar and the misnomer perpetuated by Egerton. This has come up a number of times over years in discussions and much like so many examples of misapplied terms for weapons,the terms have become so entrenched in parlance that efforts to revise them have proven fruitless. Actually I wince as I think of this every time I write on katars, but stick to the well worn term anyway! Thank you for adding it here for the record.

All best regards,
Jim

[Tomb22]

Hi Rand,
Thanks for your information regarding the proper name. I have looked at many of the comments on this forum and have appreciated the depth of knowledge and willingness to share from the group as well as the patience that seems to be extended to us newbies. Very admirable.

This particular Jamadhar seems to have very sharp teeth. I have looked at a lot of pictures and this is the only serrated one that I have seen. That, and what appears to be a "Cobra blade" is why I felt that it might be a little unique. I have not been able to determine any wootz or other metalurgical characteristics. The blade appears to have been polished???

Also, the serrations and sharpness of the blade make it seem like it was to be used in "slicing and dicing" as well as what appears to be the more conventional "pushing" or "punching."

Thanks again for your information. I have received this particular piece from my grandfather through my mother. He was a collector but more along the lines of World War I and II German Lugers. I am most interested in as much information and history as is available, particularly about age, region. I understand that it would be almost impossible to know the history of this particular blade, but it would be really interesting to know more about the type and possible uses.

I was told by the gentleman that showed me the Cobra blade that,

"The extensive decorations in the form of chiselling and gold koftgari (inlay) indicate that this was a court piece, not a battle weapon. You've kept it in good condition, but it is apparent that it never suffered any damage. The pierced work was not to keep the piece light, rather it was decorative. Some hilts in the south - Tanjore for example - feature extremely complex fretwork in silver and gold. The blades themselves are sometimes very delicately pierced with intricate designs."

Tom

[Tomb22]

Thanks to you too Jim,
In observing the many discussions on this forum, you seem to have not only extensive knowledge but also a wisdom and calmness that keeps things flowing smoothly.

I appreciate your comments and they seem to confirm the possible court use. Wouldn't that possibility help to narrow down its history a little?

One of my comments is that the hand area of the hilt seems very small to me and I have small hands for a man. Also, the hilt area has many, numerous tiny holes that go all the way through. I had thought that maybe it was created for a female? The gentleman quoted previously, indicated that he was of the school of thought that the size was more related to smaller nature of men at that time and that the holes were part of the decorative design. I had felt that maybe the holes were to lighten the weight? Wouldn't they have to use something in the casting to make the holes? Or did they actually have some device that would allow them to "drill" so to speak?

I apologize for not using both cm and inches in the original post. The blade is 16.25 inches and the overall length is 22 inches. The circle is 2.4 inches in diameter. It seems like the "chiseling" to make the hilt would take a lot of time. I am amazed at I look at some of the other edged weapons on this forum how intricate as well as labor intensive the work of creating some of these beautiful blades were.

Regards
Tom

[katana]

Hi Tom,
Beautiful Katar
There is the possibillity that the small holes in the hilt is where chain mail or leather protection was fixed, usually by small metal rings. If this is the case it surely suggests that not only was this intended for use, but also the owner had very high status.

David

[Tomb22]

David,
Thanks for the input. If you look at the 3rd picture down, the one showing the Tiger and hilt - Then focus on the area where the 3 rivets are, you will see many little tiny dark spots all through out that dark area. Those are the piercings or "drill holes" as I call them. They go completely through the metal. They are also in and all through the dark areas of the protective bars. They are so small and so uniform, that I could think of no other reason then making the piece lighter. But, then as my friend from the other forum indicated, he thought that it might be part of the "decoration."

I know they are hard to see in these pictures and I will try and see if I can get a better close up. My camera doesn't do as well as I want with closeups so, will probably borrow a friends.

One of the fun things about this group is that with so many sharp people, thoughts and ideas pop out that I might not have ever thought about so, I really appreciate all comments as I am here to learn.

Thanks again,
Tom

[rand]

Hello Tom,

When determining the age of an object such as your katar that was in use for centuries, the style of ornamentation, quality of the lines, color of gold, blade all come into study. To make an accurate assessment very focused, clear and sharp images are needed.

For example: Your dagger has pierce work on the handle, but it is impossible to tell from the photo what shape the holes are or what type of chasing it has done.

Reguarding the gold overlay on the handle: The focus and lack of a macro photo showing great detail only allow a guess based on general style.

From my perspective the circular motifs on the handle hint at 18th century, pierce was more used in the 17-18th century all though some of the finest examples are 19th century. The color of the gold appears to be high carot, that suggests 18th century of earlier. The lines of the vegetal motif look a little irregular (may just be wear and lack of focus makes this very difficult to determine) and that hints 18-19th century.

If were to average this out an approximate 18th century time period would be one opinion. What you really need are very focused sharpes images(including a few macro shots) of all aspects fo you jamadhar.

rand

[Tomb22]

Hi Rand,
Yes, I can see that there is so much that goes into understanding these great blades. I have enjoyed the camera work for the really good close-ups on some of the threads. I have mentioned to myself and others for awhile that I need to get some better pictures. I will do so in the next couple of days and return. That will help for better viewing and discovery. I appreciate the instruction and will get it done.
Thanks
Tom

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Tom,
Thank you so much for the very kind comments! which are very much appreciated. I also really appreciate your posting this great example of Indian weaponry for discussion. Weapons such as this are great incentive to really hit the books, and present great opportunity for learning more on the weapons of India.

Concerning the serrated edges on the blade, although this feature affords the weapon a rather fearsome appearance, it has often been debated that it actually can prove counterproductive in various instances of use. This is likely the reason for more blades not being produced with this feature, and those with it are typically parade or court weapons, and the nagan theme often associated with many of them. In the case of the 'cobra' type blades, the presumed 'hood' is congruent with the hilt which would be considered the head. In your example the widened disc is further down the blade from the hilt, which is why it seems to disqualify the 'cobra' symbolism, yet the wavy serrations may still carry the nagan theme.

In viewing the interesting scene on the disc which includes a tiger, it would be quite worthwhile to consider the Tipu Sultan weapons, in which he used the tiger often allegorically in many themes and forms of symbolism. If this proved to be pre 1799, which seems quite plausible, the potential for this weapon may be extremely important.

Rand has offered some outstanding observations in trying to establish the proper date presumed in these weapons, which can truly be difficult as the traditional forms remained in use for centuries.

Very good suggestion on the pierced holes for attachment of chain link armour by David .I honestly had not thought of this for an Indian piece, but could well be valid. The protection for the hand was of considerable concern as evidenced by the elaborate hand guards often seen on Tanjore items, and of course the development of the gauntlet sword (pata). While I cannot recall ever seeing such attachment of mail on a weapon, it of course was the manner of attachment for the aventail on the helmet (kulah khud).

All very best regards,
Jim

[Tomb22]

Wow Jim, exciting comments ("If this proved to be pre 1799, which seems quite plausible, the potential for this weapon may be extremely important.") I would humbly ask what does extremely important potential mean to you?

One of the reasons for seeking out more informed comment is that I have spent sometime looking around the internet and have not seen anything similar. The closest has been the 2 Oriental Arms weapons labeled "Cobra Swords" and they had different hilts and non-serrated blades but, there were what I thought in my inexperienced eye remarkable similarities. Here they are:

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1908
http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=1941

Now, being inexperienced, and meaning no disrespect, I do not know the quality of the history cited by Oriental Arms for these 2 weapons. But, they both seem very similar relative to what they call the "Indian straght blade bulged at the ricasso." What is a "ricasso?" In my case, from the "bulge" or the "disc" down, the blades seem very much from the same maker and/or design, particularly with the ridge down the center. In the blade that has a scabbard, it indicates a date possibly in the "1795-1804" area. I think that I agree with you concerning the specific "cobra" symbolism but, isn't the "widened disc" being "further down the blade from the hilt," more of a function of the type of hilt itself?

Please, in all of this discussion or responses with any of you, I am not asserting any type of "knowledge" about any of this. I am just sort of thinking out loud and putting out a few thoughts and questions that your comments trigger relative to what limited material that I have seen and read mostly from the internet. Certainly nothing like the superb books and the many years of experiences, you are drawing from.

Also, as previously noted, I have taken the lack of clear pictures demonstrating the various parts and qualities to heart and will have something better sometime this coming week, which hopefully will provide you all with more "accurate" images.

With the observations thus far, it does appear to be somewhat unique? Have any of you seen anything like it before? And, with the "court" or "royal" possibility would that lend credence to uniqueness? Or, was it similar to today where the masses seem to want what the elite have and so there may be many copies or imitators of design and style?

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful and considered opinions.
Tom

[Tomb22]

Jim, I don't know how to put the quote in the little window. So, am just doing a copy and paste. You said,

"Concerning the serrated edges on the blade, although this feature affords the weapon a rather fearsome appearance, it has often been debated that it actually can prove counterproductive in various instances of use. This is likely the reason for more blades not being produced with this feature, and those with it are typically parade or court weapons..."

Would you be so kind as to point me in the direction of the debate on "serrated edges?" With my inexperience, it would seem to be productive if the blade got "stuck" so to speak in bone etc., that the serrations would make it a little easier to obtain a release through the "sawing" motion. I apologize for the graphic image this may conjure up.

And then, thinking out loud and with no experience in the making of a blade, it would seem that producing a serration would be an extremely labor intensive project and if that is true, could that be the reason there are so few of them?? Except maybe from a royal or person of the court that could afford the cost of the extra labor?

Thanks again for your input and courtesy. I am now off to find out more about "Tipu Sultan weapons." What a great pool of knowledge and experience that resides on this forum.

Regards
Tom

[ward]

Here is a some what similar katar sereted edges armor piercing tip well weighted and heavily pierced. This one is a straight killing weapon and I dought you would confuse it with a parade piece.

[Tomb22]

Hi Ward,
I think that you could call that a, "lean mean killing machine!" What a wonderful piece of work. I wouldn't want someone chasing me down the road with that. Thank you for sharing. That is the first serrated blade that I have seen other than mine on this type of weapon. What are the dimensions? The bulge or "disc" as Jim calls it, and I bow to his expertise, on mine is 2.4 inches. I also note the ridge on your blade. I am guessing that has something to do with increasing the strength of the blade? Also, would this be from the same general area? Due to the sort of similar blade shape?
Excuse my lack of knowledge but what is the proper term for the suberb craftsman that create these blades from lumps of metal?

That is an excellent picture of the piercings. They are the same (piercings)on mine except where the koftgari designs are. Does anyone know why they did these piercings? What are their purpose or function. And Rand, I see more of what you mean by the close ups so that we all can get the "picture."

Regards
Tom

[ward]

total length is 23 inches the cricular section is 3 inches wide probaly 17th century probaly same area of origin as yours northern India. Piercing is done as decoration and yes chiseling is usually earlier. later they went to acid etching.
I think yours is 19th century just opinion,beutiful piece.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Tom,
By 'important potential' I meant that if indeed this is pre-Seringpatam (before 1799) and with the tiger allegory, it could very well be a piece associated with Tipu Sultans court. Although admittedly ambitious, there is always the possibility. Naturally, it is also possible that the weapon could be from the 19th century as Ward suggests, and numerous weapons commemorating the defeat of Tipu were produced in the decades after the event.

Incidentally, the ricasso is the root of the blade just below the guard, also on sabres referring to the blunt area in that region where the edge terminates.

Your points concerning serrated edges being extremely labor intensive are quite valid, and may be considered a factor in the small numbers of them found. While of course these would be more difficult to produce, they are equally as difficult to maintain as sharpening would be very difficult. The discussions on these blades have occurred over many years on these forums, and unfortunately many of these are not presently accessible as they are in the archives, which seem to be unavailable. I also wish I had access to my notes which included some of the points made as the dynamics of these blades were discussed.

What I do recall is that in Pant (p.56-57, "Indian Arms and Armour") he notes that serrated blades had been found unsuitable for use against armor, and abandoned use of such blades by the late 17th c. Was is unclear is obviously what type of armour..obviously no sword blade was of any use in striking armor, and if he referred to the heavy quilted armor, even that was greatly resistant to cuts. It seems that it was noted in another discussion that the serration in a slashing cut caused uneven contact that interfered with the cut. I have always deferred on these 'dynamics' discussions to the martial arts guys, who actually test things etc.

Wards katar certainly looks menacing, and of course deadly. It is quite unusual in that the serration and the disc are not typically seen on these. It may well be from northern India and as noted, could not be mistaken for a parade piece. It appears of standard katar size, and of steel. It is of course of form intended for armor piercing, and close quarters combat in design. I would concede that the serration would afford effective cutting action in both thrust and withdrawal in concept. I am somewhat surprised this feature was not more widely used, but for the thoughts we have discussed on the practicality.

Your katar is profusely decorated, and of course presumably for court use as discussed. It is important to note that in actuality these transversely gripped weapons, the katar and pata, in southern and central India were used in slashing cuts, with thrusting very much discouraged. As I have mentioned, the serrated edge has somewhat disputed effectiveness in this use, so I would hold to the suggestion that the feature on your blade would be more to visual effect. In court, clearly the objective was to impress, and this weapon certainly does do that. Returning to Tipu, and at the risk of being overspeculative, I would point out that he was quite the showman, if the look at his elaborately uniformed armies etc. The tiger attacking his prey seems an obvious allegory, as Tipu fashioned himself "The Tiger of Mysore", and the animal victim symbolizing his unfortunate enemy.

It does seem that most Indian weapons are arbitrarily presumed 19th century mostly because it is relatively safe to do so, and indeed the huge volume of weapons collected in this period provide plausible provenance. However, as Elgood has noted, it is not unreasonable to find many examples, especially the higher quality ones, to be earlier and in unusually good condition .

I would like to say that I very much admire your courteous and respectful demeanor in your postings, and it is indeed a pleasure talking with you. ...not to mention the fabulous weapon you have posted for us to discuss.
There is a great deal of knowledge here as you have noted, and we all continue to learn together, so thank you for joining us!!!

With all best regards,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

In further assessment of this most interesting weapon, it has been suggested to me that the hilt seems incongruous to the blade and is quite likely considerably older than the blade. The style of the hilt itself seems to correspond with katars from Tanjore and Srirangam from 17th and 18th centuries, with the arched cup shape on the base of the hilt and the highly decorated, flared parallel bars holding the transverse grips, also quite similar to these.

It seems that often in observing a weapon, one can sometimes be remiss in failing to see such details if they are caught up in the appearance of the weapon overall.....at least in my case here. It is important to remember that even weapons that have been reconfigured or remounted are typically not diminished in importance if that event takes place during its working life, including ceremonial or parade items.

While the potentially earlier hilt has been joined with a most interesting blade that as mentioned could be somehow associated to the Mysori weapons of Tipu, it might also be commemorative and of 19th c. Even after Tipu's defeat at Seringpatam, there were considerable examples of such weapons that were involved in diplomatic affairs for some time into the 19th c. It would be difficult to determine exactly what manner this might apply to this weapon, but considering the possibilities for the components themselves, the historical quality remains.

I have thought more on the holes also, and though the thought of attaching mail sounded interesting ( it seems this is sometimes done on kampilans in the Philippines), it does not seem plausible here. It does seem unusual for these holes drilled in rather unaligned appearance to be there by design, but I am wondering if they might be of a size that might be for screws or pins to attach a guard. Many of the Tanjore katars had a shell type guard that was attached at about this location and flared up to cover the hand.

[RSWORD]

I have enjoyed this piece and the discussion to date. Just wanted to add a few things to the discussion. In regards to the "pin holes" I am wondering if they were placed there as a means to help apply a decorative silver foil. I recall reading somewhere that many of the pattisa you see with handles full of "pin holes" may have originally been covered in silver sheet and these holes serve as a means of helping to hold the silver to the handle. Perhaps the background area had something similar that has since worn away with time and age.

In regards to whether or not the blade and hilt were born together I would suggest that they are not. When you look at 2 key areas, one being the rivet attaching handle to blade, you do not see a lot of patina or wear around that rivet that you would expect after a few centuries of wear. Matter of fact, the koftgari of the handle seems to not take the rivet into consideration suggestion it was a later add on. Also, when you look at the areas between blade and hilt, again there is a lack of patina suggesting they have been together a long time. The tiger koftgari is complete and doesn't show patina beneath and around the edges of the handle, nor, does the blade. Given that those areas are extremely difficult to get to during a routine cleaning they often accumulate a lot of grime over a long period of time and this is not present or at least not from the pictures provided. I would examine these areas closely for some evidence of patina and dirt/grime to confirm it was at least brought together in the 19th century and not more recently.

[ward]

I dought there was mail ever attached and I would have to see closer pics to determine if a hood was attached. On 1st blush I would say no. There is nothing wrong with 19th century pieces or in period reworked pieces.

[Tomb22]

Thanks Jim for the kind words. I am just grateful to be here and be able to soak up the knowledge that is here. I am going to let the serrated thoughts go until I can look at some more discussion. I appreciate the concept of the martial arts folks actually using these kinds of blades in different ways to determine their functionality and effectiveness.

The 'Important potential" seems exciting. Am cautiously looking forward to more thoughts, discussion and information. I did go look up Tipu Sultan. He seemed like a fairly benevolent ruler. I was impressed with the quality of the sword that was auctioned through Southeby's around 2005/2006. That was a really beautiful piece.

Thanks for the points about "ricasso" etc.. My excitement for this forum continues to grow - for an information junkie like me.

I like the "Tiger" allegory. I will upload a few more pictures I was able to take with my daughter's camera. Still not exactly like I want but a little better for detail. The tiger is on both sides of course, and on one side the mouth is open, ready to bite. On the other side, the mouth is firmly attached to the rump of the dear.

I am still learning how to use the forum software for replys etc., I don't know where this will end up in the chain as I replied to one of your earlier posts. So, just to make sure that they don't get overlooked, I will upload the pictures with the last post. I will send this one now to experiment.

Thanks again for your comments and thoughts.
Regards
Tom

[Tomb22]

Ok, now I know that the posts go to the end, unless there is something else I could have done to put it next to the post I was responding too. Sorry, to waste your time with these kind of logistics things.

In the pictures that I am uploading with this post, I think that you can see the rivet situation a little better. It does seem that the thought of the blade and hilt not being born together might bear weight. It does look like the koftgari does not take the rivet into consideration. Good observation RSWORD. These new pictures might support that thought.

Concerning the pin holes (piercings). I still can't seem to get a very good picture of them, will keep trying. However, in the pictures of Ward's cool blade, you can see the pin holes really well. The ones in my hilt are very similar and very small, all in the dark areas between the koftgari. They just don't seem big enough to me to be used to attach anything. It would have to be the size of a piece of fine string or like very thin fishing line.

So, under the assumption that these two parts were not "born together," would that lend credence to the comments from the Gatka site that indicated riveted blades were 16th - 17th century and were generally European?

If you look at the hilt where the rivets are, if there had been another blade, it appears like it too would have been riveted?? The Jamadhar's that I have seen that were one piece with the blade at the hilt almost as wide as the hilt, doesn't seem to fit into this picture somehow??

And again, not challenging anyone, just thinking out loud - if it were a 2nd blade, and the first one was also riveted, would there be any other indication?
Would there be more disturbed or irregular metal. Were they good enough to pop the old rivets out and put in new ones without leaving any evidence? As you know I have no real experience and knowledge except the great things I am learning here so feel free to "correct" my thoughts.

In a previous post, in talking about the two "Cobra Swords," the Oriental Arms folks indicated their blades which are similar to this one, are an "Indian Straight blade bulged at the ricasso."

Whew, now I see part of the enjoyment you gentlemen get from this. Thinking about all the various possibilities and then about "What does that mean?" sort of boggles the mind - great fun!
Thanks again for all of the interest and comments. Your thoughts are keeping me going, looking for more answers.

Kind regards,
Tom

[Tomb22]

Hmm, those came out better than I thought. As you can see in the part of the hilt that is riveted. There are pin holes there too. Also, it appears that piece might have been "soldered" or something to attach to the curved bottom transverse piece where the 2 protective bars are attached. If you notice there is a touch of separation at the edges.

Here are some more pictures. I hope that they are helpful to you. If you would like something more specific - please let me know and I will try and accomodate you. In this set, you can see the other side of the blade where the Tiger has its prey in its teeth. I will do one more set of a few blade pictures. As noted before, there doesn't seem to be an wootz on this blade.

Kind regards.
Tom

[Tomb22]

Here are the few blade pictures.
Regards
Tom

[Jens Nordlunde]

Here is a sword with the 'cobra' form of blade.

[ward]

here is another example of pierced work

[rand]

Observations of Toms Jamadhar:

The two flanges that extend from the handle of the jamadhar holding the blade between them attached with a riveting technique apear to have pierce work as do the sides of the handle. Looks as is it is mostly filled with an accumulation of dust, dirt and small debris.

The application of the gold overlay is a technique called koftgari where the metal is first cross hatched with a fine pointed tool called a "cherma", then overlaid with a gold wire that is tapped in place with a small hammer and punch, then it is exposed to a moderate heat after which it is polished with an agate rubber "Mohari" and cleaned with lime juice.

The design on the handle has a circular vegetal motif with circular shaped flowers with all leafs attached to a vine, the design on the blade has an open cartouche shape with open fan shaped flowers with some leafs seperate. Both have similar quality of koftgari work.

The quality of the chiseled line on the tiger, deer

The rivets are still hard to study from the photo's, but the appear to stand in higher relief than adjacent metal.

Summing up the above it suggests one craftman for the work on blade and one for the handle. This would be inline with most arms as there would have been a miner for ore, smelter, forger, blade maker, blade polisher, hilt maker, hilt and or blade art fabricater, scabbard maker.

Unable to find my reference as to defintion of koftgari but belive it to mean, " the beating of gold (koft)by a craftsman(gari)"

The above is only theory based on opinion and should be weighed against other viewpoints.

rand

[Jens Nordlunde]

Ward, you have a very nice katar hilt, is it possible that you can show it without a shine?
Rand, do you think the hilt and blade of the katar shown by Tom are of the same age - I don't.
Attached is a tabjore hilt.

[ward]

that was a preety awful pic shows what happens when you do things in a hurry

[ward]

Here is a different style. If i can get time I will take some more pics of different styles of katars

[rand]

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Ward, you have a very nice katar hilt, is it possible that you can show it without a shine?
Rand, do you think the hilt and blade of the katar shown by Tom are of the same age - I don't.
Attached is a tabjore hilt.

Hey Jens,

The work on the hilt of Toms jamadhar is more inline with craftsmanship earlier than the blade, both in execution and design. My gut feeling is the blade is 19th C. and the hilt 17-18th C.

Where as on Wards jamadhar the edges of the leaves are done the same, the center of the leaves are also hollowed the same, the decoration on leaves also matches on the hilt and connecting flanges

rand