Old Chain Mail, European Medival or Late Ottoman??

Oriental-Arms · 27th September 2009, 08:45 PM

I have just posted a new thread on the European Armoury forum that has much to do with Ethnographic as well as European. So all are welcome to join

ariel · 27th September 2009, 09:15 PM

I am putting my response here because I think it IS Oriental.
Astvatsaturyan , in her book "Weapons of Caucasian nations" discusses Circassian mails, that were in widespread practical use well into the mid-19th century.
They had the same " collar" as the one Artzi shows, made " on the rivet", and connected to 4 surrounding rings: all in agreement.
Circassian mails were famous throughout the area for their quality: Shah Abbas told Russian ambassador Andrej Zvenigorodskij that "... good mails come to us from Circassia", mails were traditional Circassian gifts to regional royalty and the Russians hired Circassians to teach their workers how to make good mails.
Circassians were exiled by the Russians in the 1860s and they went to Turkey. Many were settled in current Israel/Jordan/Syria.

Thus, the preservation state, the quality and the construction features all point to the Circassian possibility.
My 5 cents....

Oriental-Arms · 28th September 2009, 09:28 AM

The Circassian connection is interesting. Do you have any photos and/or drawings showing Circassian made mails with this arrangments of ..." on the rivet", and connected to 4 surrounding rings... ??

BTW, in all mail armors (save few) each ring is connected to the four neighboring rings, either all riveted or all open. In the specific arrangement I am interested in each riveted ring is connected to four welded rings or vise versa: each welded ring is connected to four riveted ones.

ariel · 10th October 2009, 04:39 PM

Sorry for the delay: I was in Brazil for a week ( not sorry for THAT!), and here are some pics from Astvatsaturyan's book, all pertaining to Circassian mails.

ariel · 10th October 2009, 04:40 PM

O-oops... Forgot to rotate....
But the principle is there.
Hope it helps.

27th September 2009, 08:45 PM	#1
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Old Chain Mail, European Medival or Late Ottoman?? I have just posted a new thread on the European Armoury forum that has much to do with Ethnographic as well as European. So all are welcome to join

28th September 2009, 09:28 AM	#3
Oriental-Arms Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Haifa, Israel Posts: 183	Circassian?? The Circassian connection is interesting. Do you have any photos and/or drawings showing Circassian made mails with this arrangments of ..." on the rivet", and connected to 4 surrounding rings... ?? BTW, in all mail armors (save few) each ring is connected to the four neighboring rings, either all riveted or all open. In the specific arrangement I am interested in each riveted ring is connected to four welded rings or vise versa: each welded ring is connected to four riveted ones.

10th October 2009, 04:39 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry for the delay: I was in Brazil for a week ( not sorry for THAT!), and here are some pics from Astvatsaturyan's book, all pertaining to Circassian mails. Attached Images

27th September 2009, 09:15 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I am putting my response here because I think it IS Oriental. Astvatsaturyan , in her book "Weapons of Caucasian nations" discusses Circassian mails, that were in widespread practical use well into the mid-19th century. They had the same " collar" as the one Artzi shows, made " on the rivet", and connected to 4 surrounding rings: all in agreement. Circassian mails were famous throughout the area for their quality: Shah Abbas told Russian ambassador Andrej Zvenigorodskij that "... good mails come to us from Circassia", mails were traditional Circassian gifts to regional royalty and the Russians hired Circassians to teach their workers how to make good mails. Circassians were exiled by the Russians in the 1860s and they went to Turkey. Many were settled in current Israel/Jordan/Syria. Thus, the preservation state, the quality and the construction features all point to the Circassian possibility. My 5 cents....

10th October 2009, 04:40 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	O-oops... Forgot to rotate.... But the principle is there. Hope it helps.