"The Arms of Greece" by Dr. Robert Elgood

Jim McDougall · 14th January 2010, 12:28 AM

With great anticipation many of us have awaiting the arrival of this fantastic new work by Robert Elgood, and just received mine today. Magnificent!!!

I had no idea this would be such a huge volume, and its format and the illustrations beautifully done. As always, I have always loved the books by Elgood as they are treasure chests of footnotes and obscure details....I often simply browse through them and it is truly a joy in finding precious notes that suddenly throw light on some long standing project that has come to a halt in direction.

While I must admit that my knowledge of Ottoman arms, let alone Greek, is almost embarassingly cursory, and I do not feel qualified to offer any precise criticism on the work. However, knowing Dr. Elgood and the detail he seeks to present in his work, I know that I can be assured of remedying that status with this reference.

A few words I would offer to those who will undoubtedly step forward to pronounce negative comments or criticisms; I have been acquainted with Dr. Elgood for a good number of years and have known of his efforts to put this work together in this time. I know how tenaciously he works at finding the material and references, as well as trying to confirm and support the details he presents, and know personally of his efforts to find as much precision and accuracy as possible.

It seems that often when one is seeking information in this research, there are altogether too many cases where those with expertise or important key information are not particularly forthcoming in sharing thier knowledge. It does seem that after a work is published, many of these individuals will gladly step out of the shadows to present information in rebuttal. As I have been told by some authors I have known, this is of course to be expected in varying degree. There is a broad difference between derisive criticism and that which is constructive, which acknowledges the positive content of the work, along with helpful notes on that which might be better presented.

With that having been said, I very much look forward to learning more on these intruguing and very esoteric weapons, and many hours enjoying perusing through this wonderful volume!!!

All best regards,
Jim

ariel · 14th January 2010, 02:43 AM

This book is a treasure trove of information and careful insights. I was a bit puzzled by the incongruency between the title and the content: the former refers to the "Arms of Greece and her Balkan neighbors", whereas the latter almost entirely refers to the Balkan weapons. The "Greek weapons" component contributes only 20 pages out of ~300, and is even smaller than an interesting but only questionably relevant chapter dealing with the history of the Greek War of Independence (46 pages).
Another thread here
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11196
already mentions displeasure of some Greek collectors: in their opinion, Greek weapons were misidentified as Balkan.
Are the Greek collectors right in their criticism?
My guess it is going to be a hotly debated, widely discussed and hugely useful book. My only regret is that Dr. Elgood did not go into greater detail differentiating separate styles of yataghans based on their place of manufacture in the Ottoman Empire. He goes around it by saying that the blades were mass produced and acquired specific furnitures locally. That may be so, but I would like him to go outside the Balkans and look at other places ( different parts of Anatolia, Bulgaria, Kurdistan etc) in search of characteristic features for each area ( or refuting the existence of such!). Also, the issue of knives ( yataghan bichaq, Cretan, Bosnian etc) was not covered. Perhaps, the time-frame he set ( Ottoman Rule) was limiting, but some weapons or events well after that were in fact discussed. So, why not Cretan knives, for example? Or Balkan kindjals?
No book is perfect ( except the Good Book :-)), but this one is obviously a work of an exquisitely professional historian of weapons.

Rumpel · 15th January 2010, 11:35 AM

While it's an excellent book, I agree completely with Ariel's comments above, esp. regarding the classificatory lacunae with yataghans and the complete absence of bichaqs. I suppose, for collectors, the ideal book is something approaching a catalogue...

I think the focus on the Greek War of Independence derives from the collaboration Elgood undertook with the NHM, Athens for their forthcoming exhibition (though given that around 1/2 their total display space is already given to weapons from the Revolution, I'm not sure how they're going to reshape it into a special exhibition).

CharlesS · 15th January 2010, 03:17 PM

I really liked the book and thought it was approached in a very scholarly, yet entertaining(well illustrated) manner.

I think it is a very unique approach to looking at Ottoman styles, and I was just mesmerized by some of the examples shown with Christian images on their scabbards, but Quranic script on their blades......

Having a major publisher also made it much moire affordable.

TVV · 15th January 2010, 09:18 PM

Obviously, by far the best book written on the subject. As always, plenty of great information, all well researched and supported.

I like the author's approach, starting with a study of the history of weapons and weapons manufacturing in the region and then following with another chapter on the trade links in the area, before even going into the various production centers.

Here is what I am a little puzzled on though - given the importance of trade and cultural ties within the Balkans and the surrounding areas, why is the emphasis so heavily on the western part of the peninsula? The book really feels more like "The Arms and Armor of Former Yugoslavia" rather than what the title says.

I also agree that a chapter on daggers would have been really helpful to collectors - after all, there are chapters dedicated to pistols, long guns and of course the yataghans. Perhaps the topic of daggers, especially if one includes the local kindjal forms, was too large to tackle in a single chapter, and given the enormous size of the book as it is, it was decided that some limitations need to be imposed.

Here is to hoping for a new, expanded edition in 2 volumes down ther road.

Regards,
Teodor

stephen wood · 15th January 2010, 09:47 PM

...he came along to give us a great talk recently at the Arms and Armour Society at the Tower of London - informative and full of amusing anecdotes...

14th January 2010, 12:28 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,836	"The Arms of Greece" by Dr. Robert Elgood With great anticipation many of us have awaiting the arrival of this fantastic new work by Robert Elgood, and just received mine today. Magnificent!!! I had no idea this would be such a huge volume, and its format and the illustrations beautifully done. As always, I have always loved the books by Elgood as they are treasure chests of footnotes and obscure details....I often simply browse through them and it is truly a joy in finding precious notes that suddenly throw light on some long standing project that has come to a halt in direction. While I must admit that my knowledge of Ottoman arms, let alone Greek, is almost embarassingly cursory, and I do not feel qualified to offer any precise criticism on the work. However, knowing Dr. Elgood and the detail he seeks to present in his work, I know that I can be assured of remedying that status with this reference. A few words I would offer to those who will undoubtedly step forward to pronounce negative comments or criticisms; I have been acquainted with Dr. Elgood for a good number of years and have known of his efforts to put this work together in this time. I know how tenaciously he works at finding the material and references, as well as trying to confirm and support the details he presents, and know personally of his efforts to find as much precision and accuracy as possible. It seems that often when one is seeking information in this research, there are altogether too many cases where those with expertise or important key information are not particularly forthcoming in sharing thier knowledge. It does seem that after a work is published, many of these individuals will gladly step out of the shadows to present information in rebuttal. As I have been told by some authors I have known, this is of course to be expected in varying degree. There is a broad difference between derisive criticism and that which is constructive, which acknowledges the positive content of the work, along with helpful notes on that which might be better presented. With that having been said, I very much look forward to learning more on these intruguing and very esoteric weapons, and many hours enjoying perusing through this wonderful volume!!! All best regards, Jim

14th January 2010, 02:43 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	This book is a treasure trove of information and careful insights. I was a bit puzzled by the incongruency between the title and the content: the former refers to the "Arms of Greece and her Balkan neighbors", whereas the latter almost entirely refers to the Balkan weapons. The "Greek weapons" component contributes only 20 pages out of ~300, and is even smaller than an interesting but only questionably relevant chapter dealing with the history of the Greek War of Independence (46 pages). Another thread here http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11196 already mentions displeasure of some Greek collectors: in their opinion, Greek weapons were misidentified as Balkan. Are the Greek collectors right in their criticism? My guess it is going to be a hotly debated, widely discussed and hugely useful book. My only regret is that Dr. Elgood did not go into greater detail differentiating separate styles of yataghans based on their place of manufacture in the Ottoman Empire. He goes around it by saying that the blades were mass produced and acquired specific furnitures locally. That may be so, but I would like him to go outside the Balkans and look at other places ( different parts of Anatolia, Bulgaria, Kurdistan etc) in search of characteristic features for each area ( or refuting the existence of such!). Also, the issue of knives ( yataghan bichaq, Cretan, Bosnian etc) was not covered. Perhaps, the time-frame he set ( Ottoman Rule) was limiting, but some weapons or events well after that were in fact discussed. So, why not Cretan knives, for example? Or Balkan kindjals? No book is perfect ( except the Good Book :-)), but this one is obviously a work of an exquisitely professional historian of weapons.

15th January 2010, 11:35 AM	#3
Rumpel Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 63	While it's an excellent book, I agree completely with Ariel's comments above, esp. regarding the classificatory lacunae with yataghans and the complete absence of bichaqs. I suppose, for collectors, the ideal book is something approaching a catalogue... I think the focus on the Greek War of Independence derives from the collaboration Elgood undertook with the NHM, Athens for their forthcoming exhibition (though given that around 1/2 their total display space is already given to weapons from the Revolution, I'm not sure how they're going to reshape it into a special exhibition).

15th January 2010, 03:17 PM	#4
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	I really liked the book and thought it was approached in a very scholarly, yet entertaining(well illustrated) manner. I think it is a very unique approach to looking at Ottoman styles, and I was just mesmerized by some of the examples shown with Christian images on their scabbards, but Quranic script on their blades...... Having a major publisher also made it much moire affordable.

15th January 2010, 09:18 PM	#5
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,609	Obviously, by far the best book written on the subject. As always, plenty of great information, all well researched and supported. I like the author's approach, starting with a study of the history of weapons and weapons manufacturing in the region and then following with another chapter on the trade links in the area, before even going into the various production centers. Here is what I am a little puzzled on though - given the importance of trade and cultural ties within the Balkans and the surrounding areas, why is the emphasis so heavily on the western part of the peninsula? The book really feels more like "The Arms and Armor of Former Yugoslavia" rather than what the title says. I also agree that a chapter on daggers would have been really helpful to collectors - after all, there are chapters dedicated to pistols, long guns and of course the yataghans. Perhaps the topic of daggers, especially if one includes the local kindjal forms, was too large to tackle in a single chapter, and given the enormous size of the book as it is, it was decided that some limitations need to be imposed. Here is to hoping for a new, expanded edition in 2 volumes down ther road. Regards, Teodor

15th January 2010, 09:47 PM	#6
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...he came along to give us a great talk recently at the Arms and Armour Society at the Tower of London - informative and full of amusing anecdotes...