Wooden Canon

[clockwork]

Saw this very intresting piece in the Armory in Malta. Enjoy the pics

[Ed]

Wow. Talk about a rarity.

Amazing that it survived.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Ed

Wow. Talk about a rarity.

Amazing that it survived.

Hi,
Perhaps this was a fake cannon ...to fool the enemy into believing you had more armaments . I believe that this tactic was used during the American Civil War and were call Quaker guns.

Rgards David

[celtan]

The Conquistadores used wooden canons, reinforced with iron belts...

[katana]

Originally Posted by celtan

The Conquistadores used wooden canons, reinforced with iron belts...

Hi Celtan ,
yes ..and others, however there seems to be no iron re-inforcing on the wooden cannon posted by Clockwork. There does seem to be a rope wrapped 're-enforcement' ...but it seems to be originally coated with something like clay or resin. So it is possible the rope was used to give the cannon shape and was not a strenghening 'aid'.

On 'Mythbusters' an American 'Discovery Channel' production, they constructed a cannon from a 'bored' tree trunk which had steel banding re-inforcement.. which actualy worked well. They eventually greatly overloaded it with an 'exaggerated' charge of gunpowder and blocked the barrel. Needless to say it exploded violently

Kind Regards David

[fernando]

Trying to focus on the muzzle; not all layers are in wood. First you have a 'shirt' in the bore and next to it, could be a (nother) metalic section ?
I wouldn't know about wooden cannons, but leather ones actually existed; i hace pictures somewhere around.
Still David's aproach is quite a pertinent one .

Fernando

[Rick]

Originally Posted by fernando

Trying to focus on the muzzle; not all layers are in wood. First you have a 'shirt' in the bore and next to it, could be a (nother) metalic section ?
I wouldn't know about wooden cannons, but leather ones actually existed; i hace pictures somewhere around.
Still David's aproach is quite a pertinent one .

Fernando

Here :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...leather+cannon

[fernando]

Good ... and quick
Thanks Rick.
Fernando

[katana]

Hi Fernando,
I had noticed the metal 'liner' within the bore of the cannon ...but it appears (to me) to be 'flanged' at the muzzle end (ie the metal liner originally extended beyond the wooden muzzel and then was hammered / worked so as to fold back and flattened against the wood of the barrel.

It would not be unreasonable to believe that the cannon may not have been used to fire a projectile ...but to fire an 'empty' charge ...to give the impression that it was fully functional. The use of 'decoys' during battles is a very old tactic. If indeed it did fire projectiles, they must have been relatively 'light' (perhaps grape shot).....this would require less gunpowder...and would exert less stress to the wooden barrel.

Leather cannons ?!!? you must post those pictures...

Kind Regards David

Cross posted and just seen the recent updates .....thanks Rick, so leather cannons do exist ...and I thought Fernando had been on the 'vinho' ...

[fernando]

Hi David,

Originally Posted by katana

...Leather cannons ?!!? you must post those pictures...

Rick has already posted above, a fine link on those; but i'll try and find 'my' examples ... if i find them.

Lots of health
Fernando

[katana]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi David,



Rick has already posted above, a fine link on those; but i'll try and find 'my' examples ... if i find them.

Lots of health
Fernando

Yes please Fernando.

Regards

[fernando]

Say, Tony,
What is written in the museum legend about this cannon ?
I assume there was a tag with a legend on it, right ?
Fernando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by katana

Yes please Fernando.

Regards

Here you are, David
Two leather cannons and, as a bonus, considering your'e a niche chap, a silk one.
Pictures scanned from Dudley Pope "Armes a feux" (French edition).

Location of the pieces, their provenance and identification+description will follow later ... if nobody does it before me .

Best
Fernando

.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by katana

... Cross posted and just seen the recent updates .....thanks Rick, so leather cannons do exist ...and I thought Fernando had been on the 'vinho' ...

Too late David,
I already punished you with 'my' examples .
But you've made my day, though. This is the first time i see an English speaker spelling the word 'vinho' ... in strictly correct Portuguese .

Best
Fernando

[fernando]

Your'e luckier than me, David .
If you noticed the small lettering in those leather cannon legends, the one below is in the Woolwich Artillery Museum. Don't forget to take a look at it, when you next flee from Kent and come to the city .
It also says in the legend that the center tube, equally made of leather, is circled with hemp cord, before being hemmed with leather.
This cord thing reminds me the cord wraped around the wooden canon in Malta ... meaning nothing but just that .
Fernando

[Rick]

I'd suspect the wood cannon was frapped with line to reinforce it against internal pressure; it would provide continuous lengthwise support while iron bands would only be effective where applied to the barrell .

[Rick]

Originally Posted by fernando

Your'e luckier than me, David .
If you noticed the small lettering in those leather cannon legends, the one below is in the Woolwich Artillery Museum. Don't forget to take a look at it, when you next flee from Kent and come to the city .
It also says in the legend that the center tube, equally made of leather, is circled with hemp cord, before being hemmed with leather.
This cord thing reminds me the cord wraped around the wooden canon in Malta ... meaning nothing but just that .
Fernando

These cannon must have gone through subtle changes in different types of weather; shrinking, expanding . What if that inner hemp wrapping was to give a bit of flexibility (play) during different weathers to accomodate the projectile better .

[Matchlock]

... in the Germanisches Nationalmuseum Nürnberg.

Michael

[katana]

Originally Posted by fernando

.
But you've made my day, though. This is the first time i see an English speaker spelling the word 'vinho' ... in strictly correct Portuguese .

Best
Fernando

Ah Fernando ....its almost a duty for an Englishman to know how to order a drink in any foreign land ........Cheers

Thank you for posting the pictures, the silk wrapped Chinese cannon is very interesting. The barrel looks metallic ...but has a thin walled barrel. Obviously the 'silk' wrapping adds strength to the barrel...and would assume this made it much lighter, making it easier to carry. A travelling army could 'carry' a larger number of such cannons than the 'normal' metal barrelled type .....more 'fire power' for the 'same' weight.

The tensile strength of silk is quite high (500 MPa) in comparison brass is 200+ MPa , copper is 70 MPa, cast iron is 130 MPa, Steel, high strength alloy is 690 MPa and Steel (AISI 1060 0.6% carbon) Piano wire is 2200-2482 MPa

I would assume that the leather and rope cannons were formed using the materials 'wet', as both materials would 'shrink and tighten' significantly once fully dry. This would mean the rope 'binding' would be extremely tight and pre-stressed....making the structure quite rigid and limiting any flexibility.

Regards David

[clockwork]

Hey fernando

there was nothing in the museum legend but I did purchase a book on the Armoury and there is a refrence to it as a Leather Gun. when I have more time I will go threw the books I picked up and see if I can give you more details on it. Most of the info is on the other Cannons in the collection.

[Jim McDougall]

The photos shared from the museum in Malta by Clockwork have been amazing, and the thread and observations on this extremely unusual wood cannon are most intriguing. I would never have imagined cannon or any sort of firearm made of wood or even more surprising, leather!

I think the suggestions of this being a false cannon are most interesting, but am inclined to agree this seems more likely to have been intended for firing 'empty' charge as noted by David.
This cannon seems very well detailed and constructed, and I would think that something created for visual effect would be essentially a mockup intended to appear to be the object intended from a distance. I know that the 'Quaker' guns used during the Civil War' were sometimes just black painted logs, if I recall from some references. It is truly amazing how often ruse and deception were employed in warfare, and an interesting topic in itself.

Some references I found suggested that some wood cannon were used for effect, but were only able to be fired with single shot or very few. The idea of limited charge with loose projectiles would be somewhat feasible in close quarters, but a solid shot with compressed charge seems unlikely.

Maybe the empty charge idea, for perhaps signalling or ceremonial use might be the purpose?

Whatever the case...extremely interesting!!!

All best regards,
Jim

[fernando]

After all, it seems as wooden cannons were used more often as actual weapons than as fakes .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wooden_cannon

Fernando

[clockwork]

this is a excert from the book The Palace Armoury regarding the cannon/gun
One of the earliest Doc mention of the presence of weapons kept soley for the display purpose, dates to the time of the magistracy of Ramon Despuig in 1737 and refers to the leather gun. This cannon, long thought to have either been imported from some northern country, produced at the end of the 18th centry or worse still, brought over from Rhodes, was actually constructed by a local gun smith. A petition by Margarita Ellul reminded the Grand Master that it was one of her ancestors who had built the leather gun:--Margarita vedova di francesco ellul di questa Citta Valletta esponeche per riguardo d'aver un suo antentato fatto il cannone di pelle che ritrovasi conservato nella sua armeria fu alli suoi antecessori, e successori concesso l'uso della mina che ritrovasi in questa citta sotto il Forte Cavaliere--

[clockwork]

Saw this and it looked intresting
http://www.thepirateking.com/histori...y_and_gust.htm

[fernando]

Originally Posted by clockwork

Saw this and it looked intresting
http://www.thepirateking.com/histori...y_and_gust.htm

Coincidence. That's the cannon shown above, in post #13 (center picture), further comented in post #15 ... the one at Woolwich Museum.
Feenando

[fernando]

Originally Posted by clockwork

this is a excert from the book The Palace Armoury regarding the cannon/gun
One of the earliest Doc mention of the presence of weapons kept soley for the display purpose, dates to the time of the magistracy of Ramon Despuig in 1737 and refers to the leather gun. This cannon, long thought to have either been imported from some northern country, produced at the end of the 18th centry or worse still, brought over from Rhodes, was actually constructed by a local gun smith. A petition by Margarita Ellul reminded the Grand Master that it was one of her ancestors who had built the leather gun:--Margarita vedova di francesco ellul di questa Citta Valletta esponeche per riguardo d'aver un suo antentato fatto il cannone di pelle che ritrovasi conservato nella sua armeria fu alli suoi antecessori, e successori concesso l'uso della mina che ritrovasi in questa citta sotto il Forte Cavaliere--

Fine Tony,
So it was the widow who ordered the leather (not wooden) cannon, to defend herself from possible assaults ...

[katana]

Isn't that rope....and not wood ??

[clockwork]

when I was looking at it alot of the parts were wood. and the cracks you see are not from rope on the other parts of the gun. not sure about the one in front tho, I have one more book to go threw to see if I can get further info on this piece