Templar Sword?

[Cesare]

Salve a tutti
Inizio con la spada che avete già visto.

Provenienza: Nord Italia

Periodo: seconda metà del 1200
(Sono quasi d’accordo con Michael)

Le sue caratteristiche sono
- Peso : 1290 g
- Lunghezza totale 1007 mm
- Punto di bilanciamento 190 mm dalla guardia
- Centro di percussione 560 mm dalla guardia

Lama
Doppio filo e sguscio centrale. Punta arrotondata
- Lunghezza 869 mm
- Larghezza max. 52 mm approx.
- Lughezza sguscio 720 mm approx.
- Larghezza sguscio 20 mm approx.

Fornimenti
- Impugnatura 81 mm
- Quillon
Altezza 148.5 mm
Larghezza
o Al centro 11.2 mm
o Alle estremità 18 ± 1 mm
Spessore
o al centro 21 mm
o Alle estremità 18 ± 1mm
- Pommel
A forma ovoidale.
o Larghezza 50.5 mm
o Altezza 45.8 mm
o Spessore 37.6 mm

Sul pomo c’è una croce a braccia uguali, in agemina d’argento.
Sono riuscito a ricostruirne la forma sula base delle micro tracce di argento ancora chimicamente rilevabili.
Sembra essere una croce templare.

Sulla lama è presente la firma del costruttore: Tre linee parallele ripetute due volte.
Finora non ho riscontri sul costruttore. Pertanto chiedo aiuto agli amici del forum.

Grazie a tutti
Cesare

Hello
with the sword that you've already seen.
Location: Northern Italy
Period: the second half of 1200
(I almost agree with Michael)

Its characteristics are
- Weight: 1290 g
- Overall length 1007 mm
- balance point 190 mm from the qullon
- Center of percussion 560 mm from the quillon

Blade
Double edge and central fuller. Rounded tip
- Length 869 mm
- Max width 52 mm approx.
- Fuller Total length 720 mm approx
- Fuller Width 20 mm approx.

Hilt
- Grip 81 mm

- Quillon
Height 148.5 mm
Width at the center 11.2 mm
Width at the ends 18 ± 1 mm

- Pommel
In ovoid form.
Width 50.5 mm or
Height 45.8 mm
thickness 37.6 mm

On both side of the pommel is a cross with equal arms, inlaid in silver.
I was able to reconstruct the shape on the basis of micro traces of silver still chemically detectable.
It seems to be a Templar cross. (see photo)

On the blade is the constructor signature: Three parallel lines repeated twice.
I have not identified the manufacturer. A little help from friends of the forum?

Thanks all.

Cesare

[Matchlock]

My expert friend on early edged weapons defined this sword as 'ca. 1300' on the grounds that its rounded pommel is the most recent dating criterion; if it were not for the pommel it could well be second half 13th c.

More soon.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Hi Cesare,

I must say your posts start becoming a true enrichment of those forum members interested in Middle Ages weapons!

Please show us more museum items, also early firearms or detached locks as I requested yesterday.

Best,
Michael

[Atlantia]

Beautiful sword. I have one question though, why specifically Templar and not simply a later Crusades knightly sword? I always think of Christian knights adorned with 'holy' symbols etc.
I know the 'maltese cross', knights of St John, Templar connection etc, but was this symbol synonymous with the Templars only at that time?

[Matchlock]

Hi Gene,

The very same questions jumped to my mind as well. I hope we'll learn more about them soon.

Best,
Michael

[Jim McDougall]

Cesare, I would like to join the others in welcoming you here, and really look forward to the weapons you are sharing with us here, especially with the example at hand to begin with. Excellent photos, and superb description of a remarkable weapon!!

I would join with Gene and Michael in the caveat in applying the term 'Templar' as yet, as this was often collectively used in describing any of the number of monastic military orders of that time, and the cross was widely used on swords as a protective device. It seems that earlier it was most typically used on the scabbard, but of course may have been used on either.
The most distinguishing factors at this point are obviously the provenance (if this is among the excavated weapons you have noted) and as Michael has pointed out, the shape of the pommel. No doubt we will be consulting the Oakeshott references to clarify the classification.

The treble transverse lines are of course of key interest, and may lend more clues to classification.

At this point, a knightly sword c.1300 with possible monastic order association, and detail pending.

All the best,
Jim

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... why specifically Templar and not simply a later Crusades knightly sword? ...

The style of the cross, maybe, Gene !
Weren't Templar crosses different than Christian ones?

[mrwizard]

The Teutonic Knights also used a very similar cross
at that time (black instead of red) AND they had with the "Deutschordensballei An der Etsch und im Gebirge" a province nearby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_der_Etsch

Best Regards

Thilo

[Matchlock]

I'm pretty much on your side, 'Nando,

The internet does not seem to be quite helpful, either. Illustrated there is a great variety of so-called Templars' crosses, some of which I would call Maltese and others just Medieval cosses pattées ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

This seemingly is gaining suspension!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by mrwizard

The Teutonic Knights also used a very similar cross
at that time (black instead of red) AND they had with the "Deutschordensballei An der Etsch und im Gebirge" a province nearby http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_der_Etsch

Best Regards

Thilo

Exactly, Thilo,

The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider.

Best,
Michael from Bavaria

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

... The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider...

And the cross used by Christians would often have the crucifix shape; but these thing of crosses is not so linear, right?

[Matchlock]

Well, 'Nando, my brilliant and large scale expert Portuguese friend,

Honestly I can't tell for sure. I am not an expert in medieval cross shapes but in period firearms, which sadly usually do not have any definable cross symbols ...

Best,
Michl

[fernando]

C'mon Michl, i am far from being a cross expert ... in any scale
Like you, i can't wait for Cesare coments on that subject.
Meanwhile, this is how some modern author repeatedly designs the cross in the coats of arms of the more than twenty Templar Grand Masters.

.

[mrwizard]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Exactly, Thilo,

The Deutschordenskreuz usually does not show the widened and split ends though, and it is higher than wider.

Best,
Michael from Bavaria

Yes, but they are not that different and maybe
there were variations.
Below is a picture of Hermann von Salza, grandmaster of the order 1210-1239. Of course this picture is not contemporay but from the 17th century.
At the 13th century the "official" cross looked somewhat like the second picture taken from the codex manesse.

[Matchlock]

Thank you, Mrwizard,

For posting these.

Though owning a facsimile copy, I seemingly forgot about the illustrations in the world famous Manesse-Liederhandschrift.

Would you call this a Tatzen- or a Kruckenkreuz (or just a classic Romanic cross)?

Medieval Ages rule!

Best,
Michael

[Norman McCormick]

Hi,
I think this sword falls into the sphere of the Type XI/XIa Oakeshott classification. The blade is probably a little short for XI but degradation can often be responsible for the foreshortening of older blades. The pommel to my mind is more akin to the Brasil nut form than the disc type. I would like to think it was a little earlier than 1300 but with the usual caveat that styles were used and made over a long period of time. The cross on the hilt to my mind doesn't necessarily suggest Templar or even Crusader although it may indeed have belonged to either or. Life in Europe at this time in history was inexorably entwined with the Church and its rhetoric so to put a 'Cross' on a sword to imbue one with that little bit extra 'protection' seems perfectly normal. Regardless of anything it is a really nice piece, the sin of 'envy' has reared its ugly head, and I look forward to the posts to come.
Regards,
Norman.

[Cesare]

Ciao a tutti
Sono felice che il mio primo thread susciti così tanto interesse.
Cercherò di rispondere alle vostre domande.

L'ipotesi che la spada appartenesse ad un cavaliere templare sarebbe supportata dalla storia del paese.
Documenti storici confermano che alla fine del 1200 esistesse una chiesa denominata Santa Maria al Tempio, quindi, alla fine del 1200 nel paese di Legnago esisteva certamente una comunità di cavalieri templari.
Naturalmente, questa testimonianza storica mi consente di datare l'arma alla fine del 1200 (seconda metà del secolo)

Per "Matchlock" Michael:
Si, la spada potrebbe essere stata fatta nei primi del 1300
Mi dispiace, ma le più antiche armi da fuoco del museo risalgono al 1800 e sono collegate con le guerre di indipendenza italiane

A presto
Cesare


Hello everyone
I am happy that my first thread arouse so much interest.
I will try to answer your questions.

The hypothesis that the sword belonged to a Knight Templar would be backed by the country's history.
Historical documents confirm that at the end of 1200 there was a church called Santa Maria in the Temple, and then at the end of 1200 in the village of Legnago certainly existed a community of Knights Templar.
Of course, this historical evidence allows me to date the weapon at the end of 1200 (second half of the century)

For "Matchlock" Michael:
Yes, the sword may have been made in early 1300
I'm sorry, but the oldest firearms in the museum date back to 1800 and are connected with the wars of Italian independence

See you soon

Cesare

[Matchlock]

Completely agreed on my my side, Norman,

And thank you so much for the input,

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Cesare

For "Matchlock" Michael:
Yes, the sword may have been made in early 1300
I'm sorry, but the oldest firearms in the museum date back to 1800 and are connected with the wars of Italian independence

See you soon

Cesare

OK then, I'll try and keep doing my best on edged weapons with a little help from my expert friend.

Best regards to Italy,
Michael


.

[Jim McDougall]

Interesting possibilities here. In looking at those markings on this blade, they correspond to similar found on the Frankish Ingelrii swords of c.10th c. and contemporary with the Ulfberht blades. While obviously the blade profile and the sword itself is much later, it is known that the Ingelrii blades remained in use longer than those marked Ulfberht, perhaps as late as 12th century. Whatever the case, markings of course as we know continued long after the original maker or context had ceased.

The cross, to me seems very much like the simple Greek cross, and the practice of placing crosses on swords and thier scabbards was also known in the 9th and 10th c.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would join with Gene and Michael in the caveat in applying the term 'Templar' as yet, as this was often collectively used in describing any of the number of monastic military orders of that time, and the cross was widely used on swords as a protective device.

While i agree that we cannot assign this a Templar sword based upon the sign of the cross i must disagree that the term Templar can be applied to any number of monastic militaries orders. They were a very specific group.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

While i agree that we cannot assign this a Templar sword based upon the sign of the cross i must disagree that the term Templar can be applied to any number of monastic militaries orders. They were a very specific group.

Ahah! Someone is reading my posts!!! Thank you David.
Actually I should have worded that better, and perhaps noted that colloquially the Knights Templar appelation has in many cases been misconstrued in referring to other monastic military orders .
The Knights Templar were indeed a specific group, and existed contemporarily with the Knights Hospitaller (also known as the Order of St. John, later as the Knights of Rhodes and the Knights of Malta). While the Templars and Hospitallers worked together in Jerusalem and environs building fortifications and carrying out thier presumed duties, it seems that they were at times in conflict with each other as well as with another order, the Teutonic Knights.

Certainly in contemporary times there was probably little misunderstanding in identifying these groups, however in modern references and discussions it does seem that some interpolation of terms has occurred, usually inadvertantly and some references have used the collective 'Knights of Christ' term to more accurately attend to these variant groups as a whole. I must admit that much of the literature on Freemasonry and the history of the Knights Templar does present challenges in following some of the complexity in these groups.
Again, thank you for the most valid correction.

Norman, thank you for the Oakeshott categorization, which seems to fit nicely with the provenance which Cesare has noted, with a Templar presence in the village of Legnago near the end of the 13th century. Since the Knights Templars were dissolved officially in 1329, might we presume that the monastic order here were indeed still of Templar origin.

Returning to the sword at hand, again the Christian cross had long been used as a talismanic device on swords and scabbards as early as the 6th-7th centuries, and later of course. In many markings and invocations the Greek cross, similar to that on the pommel here is seen on earlier Frankish blades, and as noted, the markings on this blade III .... III with indistinguishable image in the center, are seen on 10th century INGELRII blades ("The Viking Sword" p.61).

While this blade is clearly later, and the Ingelrii blades lasted possibly as late as the 12th century, could this marking have been carried forward in marking this blade, as well as the traditional Greek cross protective decoration on the pommel?
It is known that some swords of the Crusades did indeed have the 'Cross of St. George' on the pommel in this manner, and it seems that 'MARIA' has been seen on the pommel of another, as well as probably other similar apotropaic or talismanic markings on pommels contemporary to this sword.

[Reichsritter]

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

[Cesare]

Originally Posted by Reichsritter

North Italy ? it's the house of Savoy who emblazoned a silver cross on their things

Hello
It can not be the cross of Savoy.
In 1300 the arms of Savoy was as follows:

[Marc]

Well, didn't the Templar's Rule forbid the use of precious metals in their weapons? It sure did in other objects like the spurs or the horse's bits. There was an original rule (72 articles, quoting from memory, here) that was later expanded, so one should check the right version for this sword's chronology.

Yes, I know I should check myself instead of just firing the question, but I'm a bit short of time as of late, I'm sorry.

Welcome, Cesare. We're glad to have you around

[Atlantia]

Wasn't the Templar cross always red? Wouldn't copper or red-gold have been a better metal to use?
Just a random thought..........

[David]

Jim, of course i'm reading you posts mate. How do you think i find out about all this European stuff?
I have not had time to locate any specific academic reference, but AFAIK Templars did take a vow of poverty (and silver would be wealth) and were strictly forbidden from placing personal adornments on their weapons or armor. Not sure if that extended to the sign of the cross which most certainly appeared on some shields and vestments.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by David

Jim, of course i'm reading you posts mate. How do you think i find out about all this European stuff?
I have not had time to locate any specific academic reference, but AFAIK Templars did take a vow of poverty (and silver would be wealth) and were strictly forbidden from placing personal adornments on their weapons or armor. Not sure if that extended to the sign of the cross which most certainly appeared on some shields and vestments.

My initial thought was that Christian knights of that era must have been festooned with crosses.

Either 'Crusading' or just as a spill over from that 'era', there is an abiding romance image of the Christain knight holding his sword, with its cruciform shape before him and praying, being blessed etc.
The silver cross would be in front of his eyes if he were kneeling and holding the sword in front of him, but if it was a full crucifix on the pommel, it would be upside down when he held the sword aloft, or in opposition to the shape of the sword if it were reversed. Of course the short cross also fits the shape of the circular pommel.
It seems logical to me to have a short cross on the pommel, and silver has been long associated with holyness and purity.
I'm not sure it has to have a secondary association/meaning other than the Christian connection.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ahah! Someone is reading my posts!!! ...

Dear Mr. McDougall
Just to show you that we read your posts and as an aside, i will add that the Templars remained alive and kicking, even after their extinction in 1312.
Smart King Dom Diniz, not wishing to let their might and wealth be transferred to other orders located out of the country, never obeyed the Pope’s extinction bull and, in 1319, gave the Order the new name of Order of Christ, giving them a national identity and so managing to cease their pursuit, by achieving Pope’s John XII bull for the purpose.
Attached are the versions of the cross that evoluted until the present, the final version having been often used in Portuguese sails during the discoveries period


1 – Templar cross, used in Portugal till the order’s extinction in 1312. Can be found in engravings in the convent of Christ in Tomar.
2 - First cross of the Order of Christ. Appears in the convent of Tomar in 1352. Can also be seen in the Tower of Belem in Lisbon.
2 – Second cross of the Order of Christ. This version is dated 1400. Present in the Tower of Belem and other places.
3 - Final version of the cross, used until today. Dated 1460. It is present in the Tower of Belem (only place where the three versions can be found) and also in many other historic places in Portugal and all over the world.


.

[fernando]

Convent of Christ in Tomar.
Founded by the Grand Master Templar Dom Gualdim Pais in 1162.
We can see a cross painted in the arch of the famous charola (Templar church) and another one of stone in the XVI century Manueline style no less famous Janela do Capítulo (Chapter Window).

.