Sea Monster-Shaped Arquebus, Italian, 15th C?

cannonmn · 22nd December 2011, 09:42 PM

This gun has a 20mm bore, is wrought iron, about 36 in. long, weighs about 20 lbs. The stand is 20th C. This came from the Bivins Collection in CA., and is pictured in Bivins Collection Book "Vari-Type Firearms." The only intelligible marks on top are "VALOROSO SCOPIECTO FERISCI EL PIETO" or something close to that. It has been translates as "brave gun wounds to the chest" and is a not-too-clever rhyme. Some linguists I've consulted say the little rhyme is written in Spanish-tainted Italian, if that means anything. The gun resembles the Pistrice Monster depicted in stone carvings in various places in Italy, notably the Amalfi Coast. The Royal Armouries wanted to test the metal in it, so a small sample was taken and tested, and found to have an excessive amount of phosphorous compared to other early wrought iron. I am looking for any information on any similar weapons and what is known about them, because I've found almost no information on guns of this form in the 25 years I've owned it. This style must not have "caught on."

cannonmn · 22nd December 2011, 09:44 PM

cannonmn · 22nd December 2011, 09:45 PM

Matchlock · 22nd December 2011, 10:08 PM

Hi John,

Although especially the muzzle section clearly reflects the Italian Renaissance taste the piece obviously is a relatively modern though lavish wrought reproduction. As with many items in Dexter's (not Bivens's, he was one of the collectors) Scrapbooks, is is far from being kosher. It's just overexaggerated in both style and crafts; e.d., such a kind on grip is characteristic of the 19th c. Neo-Renaissance period.

Best,
Michael

cannonmn · 22nd December 2011, 10:43 PM

Thanks Michael, good to know, glad I haven't wasted any money insuring it!

Matchlock · 23rd December 2011, 01:11 AM

Fine, John,

At least my job paid then ...

m

cannonmn · 23rd December 2011, 03:10 AM

I shoot all my old guns, at least those which I'm sure won't be damaged by doing so. This is especially true for the bronze military cannons which are made to very high quality standards even if 200 years old.

Now that I know the Italian Sea Monster piece isn't that old, I may shoot it a few times with a modest powder charge and put the videos on you-tube. I've got about 260 videos on you-tube now, some of shooting cannons, some of military museum tours, some of gun shows, etc. etc. My you-tube username is "cannonmn" if you'd like to watch any of them. If you have trouble finding them I can supply links to a few.

Matchlock · 23rd December 2011, 08:26 PM

Flame ornaments on the barrel of a Nuremberg Landsknecht arquebus, dated 1539, preserved in the Germanic National Museum Nuremberg.

m

Matchlock · 23rd December 2011, 08:33 PM

North Italian (Brescia) matchlock arquebus with zoomorphic monster-mouthed muzzle section, ca. 1540.

m

Atlantia · 23rd December 2011, 10:12 PM

Its a great looking thing Cannonmn!
I'd love to own it. Please do post the vid here when you test fire it!!!

cannonmn · 24th December 2011, 10:44 AM

Michael, thanks again for posting interesting photos. On the

Quote:

Nuremberg Landsknecht arquebus, dated 1539,...

is the entire lock a replacement or only the screws?

One other question, since you mention the flames, have you found any small arms with rings of flames similar in shape/proportion and arrangement to those on the Mulich cannons?

Matchlock · 24th December 2011, 04:21 PM

John, the lock is original, only the screws are modern replacements.

Please see another, almost identical arquebus with the same date and marks but without the flame decoration in my collection, and retaining all its original screws and long tiller trigger (the latter broken off on the sample in Nuremberg):

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...1539+nuremberg

I cannot remember ever seeing those rings of flames on small arquebus barrels.

Best,
Michael

cannonmn · 25th December 2011, 09:06 PM

Thanks again Michael. Sorry but I never run out of questions! Another that's been fermenting in the background since I've been following this forum recently is the question: "Has anyone compiled a list of the various hackbut makers in the HRE (central Europe, Tyrol, whatever) in the 16th C.?"

I have only seen mention of one maker listed on this forum although I admit I have not read everything. You mentioned Begram (?) and Pegnitzer, are there others on the list? Apparently Mulich is another, as a number of citations exist identifying him as a maker of (presumably bronze) small arms in addition to cannons. Obviously I'm thinking that if we had a fairly complete catalog of makers, some day we would be able to match surviving pieces with the makers. But I'm not sure how that will be accomplished-perhaps by "attribution" such as is done with unsigned fine art based on common, identifiable characteristics. Perhaps someone will discover an invoice from one of the makers which gives the exact weight of the barrel, which was usually required in order to calculate the cost.

Matchlock · 6th April 2012, 11:26 PM

Hi John,

For a similar period arquebus, please see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...153#post137153

Best,
m

22nd December 2011, 09:42 PM	#1
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Sea Monster-Shaped Arquebus, Italian, 15th C? This gun has a 20mm bore, is wrought iron, about 36 in. long, weighs about 20 lbs. The stand is 20th C. This came from the Bivins Collection in CA., and is pictured in Bivins Collection Book "Vari-Type Firearms." The only intelligible marks on top are "VALOROSO SCOPIECTO FERISCI EL PIETO" or something close to that. It has been translates as "brave gun wounds to the chest" and is a not-too-clever rhyme. Some linguists I've consulted say the little rhyme is written in Spanish-tainted Italian, if that means anything. The gun resembles the Pistrice Monster depicted in stone carvings in various places in Italy, notably the Amalfi Coast. The Royal Armouries wanted to test the metal in it, so a small sample was taken and tested, and found to have an excessive amount of phosphorous compared to other early wrought iron. I am looking for any information on any similar weapons and what is known about them, because I've found almost no information on guns of this form in the 25 years I've owned it. This style must not have "caught on."

22nd December 2011, 09:44 PM	#2
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	More photos

22nd December 2011, 09:45 PM	#3
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	And the last few...

22nd December 2011, 10:08 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi John, Although especially the muzzle section clearly reflects the Italian Renaissance taste the piece obviously is a relatively modern though lavish wrought reproduction. As with many items in Dexter's (not Bivens's, he was one of the collectors) Scrapbooks, is is far from being kosher. It's just overexaggerated in both style and crafts; e.d., such a kind on grip is characteristic of the 19th c. Neo-Renaissance period. Best, Michael Last edited by Matchlock; 22nd December 2011 at 10:29 PM.

23rd December 2011, 03:10 AM	#7
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Now I can shoot it and not worry I shoot all my old guns, at least those which I'm sure won't be damaged by doing so. This is especially true for the bronze military cannons which are made to very high quality standards even if 200 years old. Now that I know the Italian Sea Monster piece isn't that old, I may shoot it a few times with a modest powder charge and put the videos on you-tube. I've got about 260 videos on you-tube now, some of shooting cannons, some of military museum tours, some of gun shows, etc. etc. My you-tube username is "cannonmn" if you'd like to watch any of them. If you have trouble finding them I can supply links to a few.

22nd December 2011, 10:43 PM	#5
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks Michael, good to know, glad I haven't wasted any money insuring it!

23rd December 2011, 01:11 AM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Fine, John, At least my job paid then ... m

23rd December 2011, 08:26 PM	#8
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Flame ornaments on the barrel of a Nuremberg Landsknecht arquebus, dated 1539, preserved in the Germanic National Museum Nuremberg. m Attached Images

23rd December 2011, 08:33 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	North Italian (Brescia) matchlock arquebus with zoomorphic monster-mouthed muzzle section, ca. 1540. m Attached Images

23rd December 2011, 10:12 PM	#10
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Its a great looking thing Cannonmn! I'd love to own it. Please do post the vid here when you test fire it!!!

24th December 2011, 04:21 PM	#12
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	John, the lock is original, only the screws are modern replacements. Please see another, almost identical arquebus with the same date and marks but without the flame decoration in my collection, and retaining all its original screws and long tiller trigger (the latter broken off on the sample in Nuremberg): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...1539+nuremberg I cannot remember ever seeing those rings of flames on small arquebus barrels. Best, Michael

25th December 2011, 09:06 PM	#13
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks again Michael. Sorry but I never run out of questions! Another that's been fermenting in the background since I've been following this forum recently is the question: "Has anyone compiled a list of the various hackbut makers in the HRE (central Europe, Tyrol, whatever) in the 16th C.?" I have only seen mention of one maker listed on this forum although I admit I have not read everything. You mentioned Begram (?) and Pegnitzer, are there others on the list? Apparently Mulich is another, as a number of citations exist identifying him as a maker of (presumably bronze) small arms in addition to cannons. Obviously I'm thinking that if we had a fairly complete catalog of makers, some day we would be able to match surviving pieces with the makers. But I'm not sure how that will be accomplished-perhaps by "attribution" such as is done with unsigned fine art based on common, identifiable characteristics. Perhaps someone will discover an invoice from one of the makers which gives the exact weight of the barrel, which was usually required in order to calculate the cost.

6th April 2012, 11:26 PM	#14
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi John, For a similar period arquebus, please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...153#post137153 Best, m